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Beautiful Fake Or Real Coin? Ancient Greek . Sicily. Syracus

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New Member

Germany
11 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  4:02 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Enigma138 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Dear Forum Members,

First I want to thank you, that this website and forum exists.

I recently made an interesting find in a coin collection. Actually only more or less modern coins. But that one didn't really belong there.

It appears to be a Ancient Greek coin.

Weight: 14,1g
Diameter: 2,5cm

It looks really good. What do you think?











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United Kingdom
3626 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  4:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are a couple of things that make me uneasy about this coin. If it were real, it would be worth a lot. An example is from acsearch. Notice that yours does not have the circle of dots on the obverse
http://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=1495643
Sicily, Syracuse. Fifth Democracy, 214-212 BC. AR 16 Litrai (13.54g). Laureate, bearded head of Zeus left. Reverse : Sigma;YPAKOSigma;IOmega;N. Nike (Victory) driving fast quadriga right, holding reins in both hands and kentron in left; below horses' forelegs, Xi;I. Burnett, SNR 62, pl. 8, D3 = Gulbenkian 358 ( same dies ). Attractively toned. A fantasitc example of powerful Hellenistic style. Superb Extremely Fine. .
This handsome Hellenistic rendering of the head of Zeus, produced at the very end of the period of the city's independence, provides a fitting final testament to the magnificence of the Syrakusan coinage over the preceding three centuries. Its issue should be set against the backdrop of turmoil in the city following the rejection of the Roman alliance by Syrakuse's last king Hieronymos (215-214 BC). His subsequent assassination led to the reestablishment of democratic government in Syrakuse (Fifth Democracy, 214-212 BC) and the city's subsequent siege and capture by the Romans under M. Claudius Marcellus. The Nike in a galloping four-horse chariot on the reverse speaks to the forlorn hope of the Sicilian Greeks that they could withstand the onslaught of the Roman forces.
Estimated Value $40,000 - 50,000.

Sold for over $67K
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  4:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't like these "bits". Are they part of the coin or are they surface dirt?





I am not sure whether I can see a seam or not. Can flan cracks be added afterwards? Hopefully FR will chime in, he's pretty good.

I hope I am wrong, but don't book the holiday just yet.
Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  4:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Seems like it has a very 'artful' application of dark bumpy patination in the recesses. I also wouldn't book a trip on this one.

GREAT photos, though!
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United States
23705 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  4:49 pm  Show Profile   Check echizento's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the community

The only way to say for sure if it's real or not is to have the coin examined by an expert. With my limited knowledge it appears to be genuine IMO. Details are a very close match to the genuine example that Pishpash has provided and I don't see any indication of casting. If real a very nice and rare example.
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United Kingdom
3626 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  4:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are 3 fakes of this coin on the fake databases. I have to say that your example resembles the real coin more than the fakes. I agree with echizento, you should take it to an expert. And if it is real, the beer is on you!
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 Posted 07/11/2015  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Green eggs and ham.

I do not like the looks of it at all.
I am not comparing it to anything but it looks like a high end fake to me.
The 'dirt' in the portrait reminds me too much of castings I have made.

I wouldn't touch the thing. On a mouse or a house.
Green eggs and ham.
IN GOD WE TRVST ....... all others pay cash !

COGITO ERGO SPVD
I think ...... therefore I yam
New Member
Germany
11 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  6:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Enigma138 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to all of you for sharing your opinion.

I can't really confirm if it is dirt or the coin structure. I don't want to try anything and I have no maginifying glases. But it looks like dirt/patina.

The funny thing is, this coin was already placed at an auction. And apperently it was the exact same coin.

Here is the link to the auction: http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1040292.






Edited by Enigma138
07/11/2015 6:33 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
3305 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  6:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Zumting ist rotten in Munchen !
IN GOD WE TRVST ....... all others pay cash !

COGITO ERGO SPVD
I think ...... therefore I yam
Pillar of the Community
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3305 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  7:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is clear they are 'supposed' to be the very same coin. But the one offered by Lanz has less "schmutz" on it than yours. I can detect other tiny differences too so they cannot possibly be the same coin.
There is only one possible explanation.

"I will not eat them in a house,
I will not eat them with a mouse,
I will not eat them in a box
I will not eat them with a fox,
I will not eat them here of there
I will not eat them anywhere,
I do not like green eggs and ham I do not like them Sam I am"

Dr. Seuss, Green Eggs and Ham
IN GOD WE TRVST ....... all others pay cash !

COGITO ERGO SPVD
I think ...... therefore I yam
Edited by FVRIVS RVFVS
07/11/2015 7:16 pm
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
3626 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  7:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No, something smells bad here.

Your coin has acquired more dirt on it since 2011. FR is correct, there are differences between the two coins, although they "seem" to be the same.

I would say 100% fake.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3305 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  8:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Look at the second curl up from the neck line of Zeus on the Lanz coin. It points downward and is quite sharp. On yours it is missing. The field surface behind the head shows differences as well as the edge.

There are reverse differences too. Perhaps pish can zero in on some of these areas and provide pics.

The reverse unlike the obverse we have more "schmutz" on the Lanz coin while the obv has more on yours !

I am inclined to see yours as a very high quality fake as details are inevitably lost with casting.
But hard as it may seem they may both be 'duds'
IN GOD WE TRVST ....... all others pay cash !

COGITO ERGO SPVD
I think ...... therefore I yam
Pillar of the Community
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1019 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  8:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Biancasdad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am also in the 'fake' camp, the obverse surface in particular doesn't look ancient at all
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23705 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  9:25 pm  Show Profile   Check echizento's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not convinced that this coin is a fake. The photo of the coin where taken at two different time, under different lighting, auction coin with black and white film and this set of photos with color film. The auction photos make the surface of the coin look porous and brittle. While this second set IMO are more realistic. This coin really needs to be examined by an expert to know for sure.
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6340 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob L to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a fascinating thread. Just to add my 2 cents: I think that both sets of pictures show the same coin, but with lighting and "schmutz" differences. I just don't see how details like the tiny "t" shaped ding at the end of the obverse eyebrow, or the angelic-looking SURFACE shape in front of Nike on the reverse could be replicated through either casting or striking:



But I also have serious doubts about authenticity considering all the manipulation. I think I lean toward "fake" too.
Edited by Bob L
07/11/2015 9:28 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
3305 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2015  11:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Look at the front horses rear thigh area. There is some detail missing in the second example. A 'softening' of the image. This is what we expect in a duplicate. Unless stamped from the same die any repro will loose something.
What puzzles me most is that they are identical in weight (.01 grams).
A casting in .999 silver should be approximately 10% smaller in diameter and weight.
I believe they are both NG !
IN GOD WE TRVST ....... all others pay cash !

COGITO ERGO SPVD
I think ...... therefore I yam
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