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Doubled Die Or Machine Damage/Doubling. What Are There Differences?

 
 
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 Posted 03/13/2017  2:02 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
A lot of new collectors take a while to figure this out. On machine damage the biggest clue is this:
They are flat, shelf like, reducing the over all size of the device.
blue[If it were hub doubling, then it would be raised and enlarged as the doubling is on the die.
The flat look of machine damage comes from die movement after the strike that alter the devices.
Note the differences from the examples below
Doubled dies that are enlarged in 3-D:

Do you see the enlarging of the device?

This may look like MD, but note it is rounded and not flat and shelf like.

On MD coins, we often see this showing one color as they are flat. But note on this coin the contour of the area affected show a light to dark area as it is rounded.


So we can see that the devices are raised on doubled dies and rounded. This happens because the hub doubling is on the die. Each coin will show the same doubling. [/blue]
RPMs that show the enlarging in 3-D:


[/blue]
Can you see that the RPM is raised above the field and is not flat or shelf like?


On this one you can see the die flow over the raised area. That shows that this has been on the die for some time, but is still there. If this were an issue with MD, then that area would be flat and also affected the normal shape of the mint mark, not the field.



Note again it rises from the field. If this were MD, then it would affected the mint mark. The RPM is separate from the mint mark.


This RPM is very close in spread, but not how it enlarged the mint marks and shows two distinct mint marks on top of the other one?

Machine damage that reduces the size of the devices in 3-D


On machine damage after the strike, they are flatten/reduced from the normal size of the devices. (not enlarged)




Note how the devices are reduced from the machine damage after the strike?


Hope this helps a bit more?
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 03/13/2017  3:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wadahek to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very helpful as always! Thanks Coop-- I'd be far less knowledgeable without your posts!
Edited by wadahek
03/13/2017 3:07 pm
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 Posted 03/13/2017  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When I see images that will prove a point, I often use them for educational purposes. Seems like most of my images have been used, but believe it or not, there are some I have saved/edited and put on the image host that haven't been used yet. I know someday these subjects will come up.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 03/13/2017  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Asked about this earlier today on another thread, you must have been putting it together, thanks coop, this is a real keeper!
Edited by Crazyb0
03/13/2017 9:07 pm
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 Posted 03/13/2017  9:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinMasters to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Quote:
On machine damage after the strike, they are flatten/reduced from the normal size of the devices.

What you're saying here Coop appears to be in direct conflict with what Mike Diamond said in the link below. He says he doesn't consider Machine Doubling as damage. There is no evidence it occurs after the strike.
To me, what he said is much more believable. The veterans on here can make up their own minds, should the newbies learn two versions?
http://goccf.com/t/278297
Edited by CoinMasters
03/13/2017 9:17 pm
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 Posted 03/13/2017  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm definitely still a newbie and I decided a while back to mostly call it just MD. In my head I say Machine Doubling because whether or not it is damage, it creates a doubled effect.

Anyway, I absolutely love Ray's 3D images and they are very helpful! As always, thank you coop for putting this together.
Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum.
-Lucretius

"Just because you're paranoid don't mean they're not after you."
-Kurdt Kobain

My Want List: http://goccf.com/t/282022
Edited by spruett001
03/13/2017 10:46 pm
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 Posted 09/11/2019  1:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sarge50 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks coop.....again very informative!
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 Posted 09/11/2019  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sarge50 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply



Top of E is distorted and R's feet is enlarged!
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 Posted 09/11/2019  9:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pasiego to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good information I will I will love to have started Collecting in my younger years .i just started 6 months sickness made me stop working . So I now use some time to search for errors and save must of to passé alone too the younger family amazing how much you need to learn you never get bored with this hobby tanks. For taking the time to answer to new collectors like me some question my look dumb but we all learn from the question as well as the answer less keep having fun and learning. Toughest for me the dd verse md
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 Posted 09/14/2019  04:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cldague to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Coop this was very helpful.
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