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An Obvious Fake (CCF?) 1833 8 Reales Because Of Mint Mark And Assayer Or ?

 
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Valued Member

United States
93 Posts
 Posted 09/21/2017  2:57 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add 20021sc to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Saw this posted on the bay. Sold within 20 minutes...never heard of a Ls mint mark from Mexico. And no assayer with these initials at any Mexican mint of 1833.
It also looks like the snake's head is upside down.
And it sold for $65 or so too.
Any thoughts?


Bedrock of the Community
United States
15734 Posts
 Posted 09/21/2017  3:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Notice the craters in the coins surface, especially on the reverse. These are from bubbles in the casting case when the "coin" was poured. As such, it was not struck, but cast, and it could be made to look like anything.

I see a bit of the edge on this coin, and it doesn't look like there is a casting mark, which is where the two halves of the cast come together on the edge. But most forgers making cast copies figure out how to make those casting marks disappear. Or maybe not, considering how poorly the molds were made.
New Member
United States
10 Posts
 Posted 09/21/2017  4:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mjhoffpauir to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree; this coin has all the hallmark calling cards of a fake. JMHO.

MJH
Edited by mjhoffpauir
09/21/2017 4:49 pm
Valued Member
United States
93 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2017  1:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 20021sc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you moxking for the info (I can certainly see what you're talking about with the craters, especially when I blow the picture up, it's more obvious) and mjhoffpauir for input also.
I'll have to start looking at the pics closer of the fields. The thing that got my attention at first was the incorrect mint mark.


Pillar of the Community
United States
4850 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2017  03:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
20021sc The coin is a fake - that is certain.

The price of $65 I presume was a BIN not an auction.

Had I seen the coin I would have bought it immediately.

That does not mean it is necessarily a contemporary circulating counterfeit - but it could be. I would take a shot at $65 but not much higher. I have seen other incorrect mint assayer combinations and I am always leery of them - in particular combinations that are entirely new to me. I have collected counterfeit 8 Reales since 1960 and anything new both attracts me and at the same time raises a red flag.

Many similar types were made in the same time frame - see Riddell's Monograph for a couple dozen. However, recently some forgers have started to create their own fantasies because they have become aware of the market that is forming and they know they sell well to guys like myself.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1371 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2017  11:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"However, recently some forgers have started to create their own fantasies because they have become aware of the market that is forming and they know they sell well to guys like myself."

Bob, you've been saying that for a while... but I've never really seen much to that.

At any rate... this one makes (3) of these that I've seen/saved pics of... so I'm sure you've seen it before. All have varying looks/tone and state of preservation - seem like perfectly legit CCs:
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United States
4850 Posts
 Posted 10/11/2017  4:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After checking my hand written notes I did find references to the type 1833 Ls OA(but no pictures). The eagle in particular is what had me concerned at the time. I indicated that I had seen a somewhat similar design on a Chinese copy. The notes are over 20 years old. This is when the loss of my first database of several thousand 8R photos makes me so upset. Since that loss (ca 1999) I have backed everything up multiple times.

Perhaps my mind is failing. I do have over 1,000 Cap and Ray 8R counterfeits that need research and have not been photographed or even recorded by date. But I am in the process now. I believe have found all of my counterfeit C&Rs and they are now in one bank. There are 28 double row boxes in total well over 5,000 coins - I may have one of these coins in there someplace.

Realeswatcher - I hope to include a section that will have more detail on the numismatic forgeries in my next book. Some of the coins testing as "new" by XRF may be surprising to long time collectors of counterfeits as they are to myself. I am hesitant only because I do not want to publish data that are not 100% solid and can withstand serious criticism. In addition it does require that the reader accepts the general premise of trace contamination of metal as a sound basis for dating. That is a fight that quite honestly I never expected to be as difficult as it has been. The numismatic community is very resistant to any methodology that condemns coins long held to be genuine as spurious.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
93 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2017  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 20021sc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamperbob , it was an auction with a starting price of $65 and went for a few dollars more as I recall...i saved it until it was over, then deleted it. I notified eBay early on it was a counterfeit (contemporary or not, they should have taken some action) and it went all 7 days to auction's end. The seller never responded to me notifying him it was a fake. I think it sold for about $70 give or take a couple of dollars. Only two bidders as I recall.
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United States
3713 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2017  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm interested in the notion that this "Ls" mint mark was used on circulating contemporary counterfeits. If that's in fact so, you'd expect that mint mark to be recognizable as standing for some actual place in Mexico.

In modern Mexico, there'd seem to be just a sole candidate with any chance of fitting the bill - the city of Los Mochis on the coast of Sinaloa. However, Los Mochis was only founded in 1893 (by a group of American utopian socialists whose plans were in short order usurped by another American who became a local sugar magnate).

Of course, in 1833, Mexico still encompassed a good deal of the western portion of the present day United States, so there may have been other possibilities. In fact, on both sides of the current border, there could've been mining communities important and well known in the First Republic but now defunct and lost to posterity. But to make a plausible case for these being counterfeits that might've fooled anybody at the time, it seems to me that it'd be helpful if such a site were to be identified.

One last speculation - the mint at San Luis Potosi was represented by "Pi" - could "Ls" conceivably been meant to be taken as short hand for the "Luis" part of that name?
Colligo ergo sum
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 Posted 10/16/2017  5:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lucky Cuss Your comment presumes that the coin must have actual ties to Mexico. It is far more probable in my opinion that the coin was simply made elsewhere. There are known examples of counterfeits that trace to French sources some in the UK and of course a great number were made in the US during the "Hard Times". I have always believed that the odd mint marks and nonsense legends were the creation of people who had no familiarity with Mexican coins.

Riddell lists eight odd mint marks Ms, G, Ds, D, oD, P, T.F and Is. He also lists EoMo even though he was aware it was a genuine mint. Three of the eight are simple errors caused by the loss of the superscript (G, D and P). One (oD) involved an improper placement of the superscript before the D. The actual fantasy mint marks are Ms, Ds, Is and T.F.

Beyond those, my research includes several others. I will liust those later.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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United States
3713 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2017  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Your comment presumes that the coin must have actual ties to Mexico.


Point well taken.


Quote:
Riddell lists eight odd mint marks Ms, G, Ds, D, oD, P, T.F and Is.


In his monograph? I specifically looked for that info in there this evening and didn't find it, nor can I see that it's indexed) In any case, I was unaware of all those others. oD is clearly a transposition, and I can conceive of circumstances under which G alone might occur on a genuine coin.

Colligo ergo sum
Pillar of the Community
United States
4850 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2017  12:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lucky Cuss

The section in Riddell is the last in the Cap and Ray section following entry 400.

Perhaps I need to explain the following statement further. I realized that after re-reading what I had written.


Quote:
Three of the eight are simple errors caused by the loss of the superscript (G, D and P). One (oD) involved an improper placement of the superscript before the D. The actual fantasy mint marks are Ms, Ds, Is and T.F.


By this I meant that some of the "anomalous or irregular mintmarks" listed by Riddell can be explained by more or less "normal" mechanisms.

The missing superscripts fall into a class which actually exists in some genuine coins, but the same error is seen far more commonly with coins that are counterfeit. I would postulate that the superscript is one of those details that is easily overlooked or missed. Sometimes the detail fills on the die is removed by lapping or die wear and disappears. So a counterfeiter copying an actual coin may simply not notice the superscript or it may be missing on the copy he uses as a model.

The same kind of normal error applies to the of. It was a mistake in order made by the forger - a simple mechanistic error.

The others fall into a true fantasy category which is far larger than most collectors are aware of. These have no explanation other than the engraver/die sinker improvised.

Here are some other examples of anomalies:

1829 MX RG Both mint initials are capital letters.
1831 M D Single mint mark and one assayer initial.
1831 X BT
1831 Z OM
1832 aC DC
1832 Ls OM
1832 oD C
1833 Is OA
1833 Ls OA
1833 MRC PD
1833 X8 SPAN M 8/0
1833 Xs SM PA
1835 N RF
1835 XA DsFLA
1836 G PJ
1836 G FS
1837 M ML
1838 BX LN
1838 Bx LN FN
1838 NX BA
1838 P AM
1840 D RM
1840 G J
1840 Z OM
1842 G PM
1842 I OM
1843 G PI
1843 Ls PM 1Ds 2Xs
1844 C PJ
1844 D RM
1844 G PM
1845 M PiA
1846 Cs RG (the final G is upside down)
1860 G PH

This list is not complete and was taken for a listing I prepared in 1999.

There are others as well and some may be controversial like the 1840 ADo OMC that has been called a pattern since it was first identified in Pradeau.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1371 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2017  05:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've always assumed since the first time I saw any of the "Is" or Ls" iterations that it's supposed to be a take on the Zacatecas "Zs". Obviously they look similar from a distance, plus the "A.O." letters are kind of like a rendering of a Zacatecas assayer mark(s).

Concerning those "close" mintmark renderings - "G" vs. "Go", "D" vs. "Do"... ditto that idea about it's generally an easy mistake as it's a relatively minute feature. They didn't notice, they didn't care, they forgot...

Perhaps sometimes it was an intentional VERY slight intentional evasion (like a counterfeit halfpenny that's correct except for one tiny thing like spelling it GEORGUIS)...
New Member
United States
6 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2019  8:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hawkmoon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hope this thread's not too old.

Bob are you saying anything under the "Here are some other examples of anomalies:" are counterfeit? I've run across a 1831 X BT coin on your list. I think you'd consider it a "chicken eagle".
Edited by Hawkmoon
04/18/2019 10:00 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
4850 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2019  11:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hawkmoon I do not consider it too old at all.

Yes, all of the coins on the list of anomalies are counterfeit. I consider "anomalies" to be true fantasies. Other legends closer to correct like the missing superscripts are incorrect but there is a possibility they could have been copied from worn or damaged genuine coins.

Other oddities are the tiny headed eagle 8Rs which seem to use blown up versions of the 2R eagle seen on many First Republic issues and of course the 8 Escudo eagle which is seen on quite a few of the Riddell coins.

The 1831 X BT does not use the "Chicken eagle" punch. I use a very narrow definition for that specific bird. Basically it is the Riddell # 237 eagle. It was one of my first counterfeits and is my favorite. It comes in only two dates 1834 and 1842. The eagle die was re-cut very late in its life which is a rare variety. I know of fewer than 6 confirmed examples. The original appearance of the die is VERY common I would estimate thousands still exist. I personally own over 100 examples. One very hard thing to find is a fully struck up snake that shows fully across the eagle's breast, they do exist I own two.

If you could send pictures of the 1831 X BT you have I would appreciate it. As far as I know that type is quite scarce. There are however, many related types using the X mint mark in various combinations often with shared major punches.

Coin dies made using King punches like the Riddell # 274 are a study unto their own. Hubs used for counterfeits are well known in the Do and Go mints and in both cases stem from genuine die tools that were created for the mint.

Because the Cap and Ray series was issued at a point in time where technology went from manual to automated there are a myriad of interesting possibilities and combinations of technologies possible. I have only scratched the surface so far.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
New Member
United States
6 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2019  12:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hawkmoon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, thanks for your reply.




All the pictures I've seen, the eagle has a left leg (as you look at the coin) this one just has a claw. The right leg doesn't clutch the cactus like other coins (pictures) I've seen.
Edited by Hawkmoon
04/19/2019 12:41 am
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