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1836 Capped Bust Half -- Cleaned?

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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 01/08/2018  11:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Imthealphaomega to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is another thing to consider. Capped bust halves are a series that is notorious for cleaning jobs. PCGS and NGC give a bit of leniency on grading them to a degree. Do badly cleaned coins appear in non details holders yes, is it right no....but it is part of the business.
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 Posted 01/08/2018  12:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do not have any facts that PCGS gives better grades to their large submitters. I do know that they are very strict on cleaning for the coins that I submit. If I cracked out the OP coin and resubmitted to PCGS, it would come back in a details holder cleaned.
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 Posted 01/08/2018  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
[citation needed]

Seriously, link some evidence. Otherwise, it is a libelous accusation.

I am no TPG apologist, but facts demand evidence, not just a simple exclamation that they exist. Also, keep in mind that new members and visitors deserve something more than the internet equivalent of "because I said so."


I would like to see some evidence as well. This conspiracy theory has floated around on this forum for quite some time. Not just by BH but other long time forum members as well. I have tried to find articles on the matter with no success. The dealer that I'm currently working with has said similar things. His theory is that Heritage holds a large stake in PCGS and NGC and therefore receives special treatment. Definitely a worthy discussion but I would like to see it backed up with some evidence.
Edited by MikeF
01/08/2018 12:27 pm
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 01/08/2018  2:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverDollar2017 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How PCGS did not give this coin a details grade, I don't know. This coin has obviously been harshly cleaned, and not market acceptable in my book. I suspect the TPGs are more lenient with certain series, and this seems to be one of them.
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 Posted 01/08/2018  3:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I would like to see some evidence as well. This conspiracy theory has floated around on this forum for quite some time. Not just by BH but other long time forum members as well. I have tried to find articles on the matter with no success. The dealer that I'm currently working with has said similar things. His theory is that Heritage holds a large stake in PCGS and NGC and therefore receives special treatment. Definitely a worthy discussion but I would like to see it backed up with some evidence.
Exactly. I am not saying it is not true, just that we need to back up our claims. If it is true, our membership deserves to know it.
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 Posted 01/08/2018  7:48 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Seriously, link some evidence. Otherwise, it is a libelous accusation.

I am no TPG apologist, but facts demand evidence, not just a simple exclamation that they exist. Also, keep in mind that new members and visitors deserve something more than the internet equivalent of "because I said so."


I won't bother to link anything. You can search articles on PCGS message boards (if their search function works).

Think about it though. These companies exist to make money. Period. Customers that spend millions of dollars a year with them get better grades and more breaks in the grading. They take better care of better customers to get more business to make more money.

To think otherwise is to say money doesn't matter. It's not libelous, it's common sense. If you want to believe integrity, honesty and purity are what drives American corporations that's your business. I quit wearing rose-colored glasses some years ago.
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 Posted 01/08/2018  7:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You donta like it, you donta buy it.
Bedrock of the Community
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 Posted 01/08/2018  7:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So basically you're not going to provide any evidence because none exists. We're just supposed to take your word for it because you read a few threads where there is absolutely no evidence in any of those either.

Sorry but you don't get to claim conspiracies as facts making wild accusations and then come out and just say trust me because you think that's how it should work. Just another nonsense accusation
Edited by basebal21
01/08/2018 8:00 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
3479 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2018  8:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I won't bother to link anything. You can search articles on PCGS message boards (if their search function works).

Think about it though. These companies exist to make money. Period. Customers that spend millions of dollars a year with them get better grades and more breaks in the grading. They take better care of better customers to get more business to make more money.

To think otherwise is to say money doesn't matter. It's not libelous, it's common sense. If you want to believe integrity, honesty and purity are what drives American corporations that's your business. I quit wearing rose-colored glasses some years ago.


I was hoping for more substance than message board hearsay. Your logic makes sense. Hell, part of me wants to believe it. Yet every time I have this discussion with folks in the numismatic community all fail to provide a smoking gun.
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 Posted 01/08/2018  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mike it's cus no smoking gun exists which it would if it were true. The heavy weights complain about their grades just as as much as anyone else.

The logic behind the giving better grades for money is flawed anyway, it just demeans the company and buyers are the ones who want the coins to be graded. In other words the submitters don't have a choice, if they won't send them in someone else will and the buyers will get them from there.
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United States
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 Posted 01/08/2018  8:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverDollar2017 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think that this theory is untrue, as I can't find a single bit of evidence to back it up.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 01/09/2018  06:45 am  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okay guys. TPG companies are a paragon of business integrity and customers who spend millions of dollars a year with them get the exact same grades and breaks as customers who spend $100 in their lifetime. If you want to believe that go ahead and stick your head in the sand. That's your prerogative.

If you stick around and read the PCGS message boards for a decade or so you'll see. Every year examples show up and they are quickly squashed/bammed/deleted. Examples of coins from big dollar submitters grading MS70 and PR70 that are actually 68s abound. Cleaned, damaged problem coins submitted by the big boys grade problem-free while run of the mill collectors get entire orders returned no-grade with better pieces in them. Every day the big submitters get upgrades that others don't get.

Many people have postulated many reasons why this happens. Some nefarious and some reasonable arguments are made. One poster suggested that since very large submissions (100+ coins) are screened by top submitters/numismatists to include 90+ high-grade coins then the 10 dogs mixed in get a different look versus a guy who submits 10 coins with 9 dogs and 1 high-grade coin. This poster at CU Forums was banned immediately.

Other posters had submitted coins multiple times receiving no-grades and spending hundreds of dollars. Finally out of exasperation they add their coins into a submission from a known "big-dog" and they receive righteous grades. Again this poster was immediately banned. More examples occur annually, just watch and read and realize the our current world revolves around money.



ANA #R3154474
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 Posted 01/09/2018  08:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ah yes the old Internet forum picture grading knowing better than in person professional grading as examples. Sure thing, that's not even remotely close to evidence and your account of what happened on the CU Board isn't exactly what happened. I do read that Board daily and have for quite some time. What happens every day is people complaining they're tight or didn't get the grade they want ect.

The whole 69/70 is irrelevant. That's not grade fixing and everyone has a different standard for what a 70 is. Simply viewing a 70 on a normal computer screen already raises the magnification higher than grading. If grade fixing was in the average joe would never get windfall grades which they do.

The bottom line
Pillar of the Community
United States
1100 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2018  09:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shotgung to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Obtaining hard evidence might be tough. I could see steep price discounts along with quicker turn around time but getting a higher grade (maybe 1-2 grades higher), I don't know. But stranger things have happened. Hell, I just found a double headed 1964 Jefferson nickel, so you never know!
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 Posted 01/09/2018  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I won't bother to link anything. You can search articles on PCGS message boards (if their search function works).
That is now how it works here. We do not send people to search other message boards. We are here to help, not run snipe hunts.
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