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 Replies: 16 / Views: 5,470 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
563 Posts |
I recently began collecting Morgan dollars. I buy my coins directly from various dealers off their websites, and occasionally from ebay listings. I'm a bit of a pessimist, so I only buy PCGS or NGC slabbed coins. I'm interested in DMPL Morgans. I've been looking at some ungraded/unslabbed examples on ebay. Being a pessimist and believing in the axiom, "You get what you pay for," I'm wondering about these unslabbed, bargain basement priced DMPL examples I see on ebay. I realize these are probably not going to grade as 65, but even at 63 or so they seem to be priced really conservatively. My suspicion is that there's perhaps a way to make ordinary dollars look DMPL when they are not. Can dipping a coin provide this effect? Some other process. I'm picturing buying a coin, sending it out to PCGS, and getting back a negative report. Or, perhaps I'm worried about nothing? |
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Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
What you see as possible pessimism, I see as a very sound request for information. Morgan dollars are perhaps my least actively collected US Coin series simply because they are so plentiful. I have a goodly number as I collect date sets, but that is the only time I purchase them. Consequently, take my advice with that prejudice known. I don't think it's the coins, so much as the photographs that may be unreliable for some raw DMPL. When I was still buying raw and still buying from ebay (I do almost none of either now), 3 of the 4 raw coins I returned to sellers were DMPL. In all 3 cases what I got and the photos provided were worlds apart. My own opinion is that almost nothing in Numismatics is a bargain, other than knowledge |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8715 Posts |
I would recommend you only purchase slabbed DMPL examples graded by PCGS or NGC, never a raw one. It is difficult to tell from photos whether a coin is really DMPL or not. It's better to have PCGS or NGC decide for you. Many sellers will list their coins as DMPL when they are just normal MS or AU-58 Morgan dollars. If I was collecting DMPL Morgan dollars, I would only get slabbed examples. Just my opinion. You get what you pay for. If you get a coin that seems to be a bargain, you will end up with a cheap, worthless coin. If you pay a little more and get the right example, you will end up with an example that is in excellent condition and will retain its value. |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Your first instinct to stick to only slabbed ones is the right move.
Think of it this way, if they really were DMPL Morgans where they could sell for significantly more being slabbed why wouldn't the sellers have sent them in?
You can make a coin look more PL or DMPL than it is depending on how you set the lighting and take the pictures. Most morgans will look more PLish just from the simple fact of taking a picture even when the seller is trying to be as accurate as possible.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21635 Posts |
I would think that the vast majority of DMPL Morgans these days, would be slabbed anyway.
Three benefits:
A combination of protection and authentication, as well as grading. Protection would be the most important.
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Valued Member
240 Posts |
Here's a post I made recently. While you can't really appreciate the DMPL coin in my images (it looks nice in hand) ... DMPL Morgans (maybe other coins too) will often appear to have more bag marks for the same grade. It's either a function of the subjective (human) grading process ... or maybe there is something about the strikes that cause this to happen. Be sure to go through the entire thread to see all the pics. https://goccf.com/t/307432 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12046 Posts |
Buying raw PL/DMPL Morgans is not something I would recommend until you have seen a good deal of them in-hand and know what to look for. Buying them online from photos is highly risky. Many of the "DMPL" sellers on ebay are using greatly altered photographs that have had their contrast, brightness, and color saturation modified to fake the "black and white" appearance of a high end DMPL. This also applies to coins in slabs which are not labelled PL or DMPL but which the seller claims are "undergraded" or "mislabelled." When in doubt, request a picture of the coin in question with natural lighting and unprocessed. If the seller hesitates or refuses, move on. It also helps to learn which Morgan dates and mintmarks are most commonly seen in PL/DMPL and which are scarce to rare. I will post a couple examples: "Enhanced" slabs: may be graded PL or DMPL but the photos have been enhanced to make the coin look better than it is. Pay attention to the holder, label, and background!   Raw coins that have been heavily altered. These may or may not really be prooflike. The photo editing can be done to change the color, remove scratches and marks, increase visual contrast, etc. Coin 1:  Same coin from a different angle -- seller helpfully provided this one  Coin 2: Note the impossibly black coin and the impossibly bright background.  Coin 3: similar to the above, but with way too much brightness, creating improbably white coin surfaces.  Coin 4: When you see this photo technique being used, run away. Note how the coin appears to be at the bottom of a glass or tube, and the circular "ring" of light around the rim of the coin. This is a photographic optical illusion and the coin will NOT look anything like this at all.  These are just a couple of examples, a quick ebay search will turn up a lot more. Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21635 Posts |
From looking at the DMPL's in this thread, it seems that minor scuffs are far more readily apparent on them, compared to non DMPL Morgans.
That makes you think a little more, on how they should be graded.
I would be interested on others' thoughts on this subject.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
From looking at the DMPL's in this thread, it seems that minor scuffs are far more readily apparent on them, compared to non DMPL Morgans.
Absolutely. It can be inferred that a die "fresh" enough to strike DMPL fields is also striking pristine devices, and all of these surfaces will therefore be more sensitive to contact. This is exacerbated by the brutality of digital coin imaging, which accentuates every mark and especially so when contrasted with the adjacent high-quality surface. There is currently no way to photographically depict - to a certainty - a DMPL surface. It's quite possible to illustrate the coin in a fashion making it obvious that the fields are reflective. Frankly, despite his doubts, the 1880 paralyse posted above is a good example of this. Unless the images have been tampered with in postprocessing - they may have and he's aware of it when I'm not - the coin depicted almost certainly shows reflectivity as opposed to luster. But, what cannot be determined from those or any images is the depth of the mirrors. Until we're regularly posting 100MP images full-size, there will never be sufficient photographic data available in one image to show the depth of reflectivity which allows the differentiation between mirrors, PL and DMPL. Such an image would include not only the coin, but the object being reflected and a reliable sense of scale of the distance between the two.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4388 Posts |
Paralyse nice post on PL & DMPL.
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
The internet, more specifically ebay is no place to be purchasing DMPL Morgan dollars raw and even graded examples in many cases. I've seen many a post by experienced collectors on how the TPG's used to be somewhat loose in assigning PL and DPL/DMPL designations years ago and have tightened up in recent years. Coins in older holders (yes, PCGS and NGC)should be closely scrutinized in hand. You should also know the requirements for the depth of field reflection when reading print. It is a requirement of the entire field on the obverse and reverse with no interruptions. If you do plan to purchase on line stick to reputable PNG dealers with a no questions asked return policy. |
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New Member
United States
7 Posts |
Thanks for all that info!! I am also putting together a Morgan collection and it definitely will help. Not to jump off topic, but how do you decide how much value a TPG PL modifier adds to a certain coin? Like this one for example https://www.ebay.com/itm/1878-S-1-P...AOSwdjdZ5r72The values I find are between $85-$100 in the Red Book and other sites. What does "proof Like" add to the value other than what its worth to me? |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:Not to jump off topic, but how do you decide how much value a TPG PL modifier adds to a certain coin? The only appropriate determiner of a coin's value is what people are willing to pay for it. You're competing with them for the purchase, not some published price list. PCGS Auction Prices - which should be in a collector's Bookmarks if shopping online, I have the site in my Bookmarks Bar - indicates that ~$150 is about the upper limit for 1878-S in 63PL, and $125 would be much nicer.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12046 Posts |
The 1880 is definitely a PL Morgan -- the photos are meant to illustrate the fact that bag marks, scuffs, frost/luster breaks, etc. can be concealed by angling the coin, by photographic filters, by digital manipulation, trick lighting, etc. In other words, we expect a PL or DMPL Morgan below MS65 to have some of the above issues to varying degrees. You should be suspicious of sellers who present a coin as PL/DMPL and use pictures that showcase the clean fields and devices of a 65 or 66, but price the coin at a 62 or 63.
PL/DMPL premiums vary wildly based on scarcity and condition. An 1881-S DMPL in MS65 is a very attractive coin, but there are lots of them out there. On the other hand, a coin such as an 1879-O in MS62PL might bring just as much money as or even more than the 1881; it is not nearly as attractive to look at, but it is several multiples scarcer. Price guides such as NumisMedia FMV and the Greysheet list PL and DMPL prices.
If you look at PCGS/NGC pops for PL and DMPL coins, you can get an idea of relative scarcity by date and MM. Doing this from the top of my head so any errors are mine, but some of the more common dates to find in PL and DMPL are the S-mint coins of 1878 to 1882, the O-mint coins of 1883 to 1885 and 1898-1904, the P mint coins of the late 1880s and 1896, CC of 1878 and 1882-1884, etc. They will carry a smaller premium for being PL or DMPL than, say, an 1884-S (good luck), 1879-O, 1891-O, etc. At that point, past auction sales become your best "price guide."
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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New Member
United States
7 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4388 Posts |
If you are serious about collecting PL & DMPL, you should read Wayne Miller's Morgan and Peace dollar Textbook. A lot of good information posted above. I started a PL & DMPL collection in grades MS64 or higher and got to 33 different dates and mints. The first 10 common dates are easy to find at a reasonable price. The next 10 you can find, but a quality coin at the right price can be a challenge. The next 10 are difficult to find. After 30 it gets expenisive and very difficult to find. If you are going to buy one or two DMPL, purchase MS 64 or higher as coins below the grade can look very baggy. If you buy a DMPL in a holder that is older than 10 years old, get one with a CAC sticker as JA will not sticker DMPL without strong mirrors. Edited by Slider23
02/10/2018 5:40 pm
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Replies: 16 / Views: 5,470 |
Posted 02/09/2018 5:22 pm
