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Can you help ID small silver labeled "Poland denari 15th century"?  
 

 
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 Posted 02/13/2018  7:37 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Seeker55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
This very small thin silver coin weighs 0.39 g and is 10.5 mm in diameter

One side has an eagle and the other a crown. I don't see any writing.

It's labeled "Poland denari 15th century, GUM-447" by the previous owner but I'm not finding it online using these descriptors.

I'll certainly appreciate any help with better identification.




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 Posted 02/13/2018  7:46 pm  Show Profile   Check Crazyb0's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Send a PM to Spence, his area of expertise and has some references.
Books on Doubled Dies and Error Coins:
Coin IDing For Dummies Vol. 1, "The Minting process and Doubled Dies" (PDF format)
Coin IDing for Dummies Vol. 2, "Error coins and More!" (PDF format)
Find both here: http://goccf.com/t/296596

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 Posted 02/13/2018  9:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob L to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Perhaps:



(Beastcoins.com)
Edited by Bob L
02/13/2018 9:04 pm
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 Posted 02/13/2018  9:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok thanks for the vote of confidence @crazb0. I know a little about medieval Polish coins, but it is mostly just comparing against pictures or drawings in books rather than stuff rattling around in my brain. As far as the GUM attribution, I am not familiar with this specific book. For medieval Polish coins, I used Frynas as my first line and then back that up with Kopicki (which is written in Polish and therefore is a little harder for me to navigate).

@seeker55, your Denar definitely looks Polish with the crown on one side and the imperial eagle on the other. In the late 1300s through the late 1400s, there were several of this general style issued by Ladislaus Jagiello (1386-1434 AD), Ladislaus of Varna (1434-1444 AD), and Casmir Jagiellon (1447-1492 AD). The type of eagle and the type of crown can be used to distinguish between old and newer coins. The older eagle (called "Piast"), has flat, horizontal upper wings and vertical feathers while the newer eagle (called "Jagioellon") has upper wings that curve upwards as you go laterally out from the torso out to the tips and feathers which are at an angle to vertical. Your pics aren't super-clear, but I think that I see enough to determine that yours is a Jagiellon eagle. With the crown varieties, you need to determine if the horizontal parts touch or are separated and if there are tiny crosses between the uprights.

My best determination of an attribution for your coin is that it is Frynas P.18.3 and Kopicki #378. That means it was issued under the authority of Casmir Jagiellon and can be dated to 1479 AD plus or minus a couple years. I'd be interested in other opinions on the attribution.

You have a very nice coin there--thanks for sharing!
"It certainly strikes the beholder with astonishment, to perceive what vast difficulties can be overcome by the pigmy arms of little mortal man, aided by science and directed by superior skill." --Henry Tudor (the lawyer not the king)
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 Posted 02/13/2018  9:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Seeker55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow! Thanks for the suggestion Crazyb0, and thanks to both of you Bob L and Spence for your very knowledgeable and fast responses.

It looks like GUM must mean Gumowski (this is the first I've heard of this reference), and that 411 is the correct number.
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 Posted 02/13/2018  9:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You actually had me bringing out my own 15th century Polish denar!

I think mine has the crosses, though, and I'm not sure which horizontal parts I should look for. It's also much darker.
(Eagle looks pretty much the same as on the OP's coin, though.)

I had it attributed to the ruler you call Ladislaus of Varna - that's wrong, I think? But either way it's Polish and 15th century.
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 Posted 02/13/2018  9:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@j1m, if you want to post some pics in a new thread, I'm happy to offer my opinion about attribution for your denar too. I can always use the practice.

Edit: You are very welcome @seeker55!
"It certainly strikes the beholder with astonishment, to perceive what vast difficulties can be overcome by the pigmy arms of little mortal man, aided by science and directed by superior skill." --Henry Tudor (the lawyer not the king)
Edited by Spence
02/13/2018 9:50 pm
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 Posted 02/14/2018  1:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add giedrius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
interesting article about these coins with English summary http://mnk.pl/images/upload/o-muzeu...akowa_ok.pdf
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 Posted 02/14/2018  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Seeker55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you giedrius for the interesting article.
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 Posted 02/14/2018  4:54 pm  Show Profile   Check echizento's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a similar coin with the eagle, but mine seems to have a legend. Glad that your coin has been IDed.
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 Posted 02/14/2018  4:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Certainly the previous owner mis-attributed the coin.

Gumowski 447 is a ducat, not a denar.

I will come back later with photo of the 15th c. denar I have attributed to Wladyslaw of Varna (1434-44), and any other reference I can find.
Edited by tdziemia
02/14/2018 5:11 pm
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 Posted 02/14/2018  5:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A chronology of additional images covering "15th century Polish denars, Krakow mint." Sorry that my image editing skills aren't great. But this might help with spence's attribution.

1. Bob L image of the earliest, Wladislaw II Jagiello 1386-1434. Gumowski 411, and there is probably a matching Kopicki number

2. This one attributed as Wladyslaw of Varna 1434-1444. Not listed in Gumowski.




3. Photograph from Gumowski of the Krakow denar of Kasimir Jagiello (1447-1492)



4. Jan Olbrecht (1492-1501) Gum 466, Kopicki 385
This one is clearly ruled out as a match due to the annulet below the crown and small crosses within.


Edited by tdziemia
02/14/2018 5:58 pm
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