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1892 Reverse Blank Planchet (Eating Crow!)

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bobby131313's Avatar
United States
24174 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2008  01:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coulda got this one for a buck more.
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jeffreyice1's Avatar
United States
381 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2008  02:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jeffreyice1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So, we can probably tell by the weight if anything has been removed. Is that right?

bobby131313: This was my first Error coin I was actually going after! I have plenty of Indian heads!
Edited by jeffreyice1
06/01/2008 02:09 am
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foundinrolls's Avatar
United States
3507 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2008  02:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,

I just want to add so that there is no confusion. Magician's coins are not struck from molds. They do not start out hollow. Real coins are machined to make the product, as seen in my pictures. This is one of the more complicated ones I've seen.

Thanks,
Bill

1892-Reverse-Blank-Planchet-Eating-Crow!

1892-Reverse-Blank-Planchet-Eating-Crow!
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foundinrolls's Avatar
United States
3507 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2008  02:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If the seller has a return policy, get your money back. That will be the best advice you got all night:-) I am not trying to be silly, but by the time you get the penny, weigh it and try to send it back, the only magic that will happen is that $80.00 will disappear.
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jeffreyice1's Avatar
United States
381 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2008  03:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jeffreyice1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
foundinrolls: They where when I was a kid! (Long time ago) You can see the swirling inside the coin where it was removed (On your coins from a lathe), I assume they could of but for the price I paid back then would have been impractical, (Plus (from the your pics) to small to cover a coin of the same denomination (I suppose they could have been turned then pressed) I can see in your picture that the Tails of the Kennedy 1/2 was shaved around the edges to fit but the coins I used worked on regular coins)) and The Shells I had were pressed. And at the time there was a law about defacing Money!

PS its going to be an 80.00 lesson as there is no return on the live auction. I would like to point out that there is an imperfection (Looks like a die hitting a die) in front of the nose going up to the Second 'T' in States (looks like a knife).
Edited by jeffreyice1
06/01/2008 03:41 am
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coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2008  08:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So basically what it boils down to is that no matter how many people respond you're still going to say ALL of them are wrong. Wow...

No need to post anything else to this thread unless you AGREE with the owner of the coin...he doesn't want the TRUTH, he wants people to tell him that his $80 was well spent. He wants you to lie to him.

BTW, I'm no metallurgist, but I had an opportunity to speak to one a few years ago about a specific subject - lathing a perfectly cylindrical die in 1812. It was possible then, as was it possible to refine alloy making to an exact science at that time. Unless you were born prior to 1812, you were NOT born prior to people machining coins to turn them into something else.

All you want to do is buck heads with people, you won't listen to a single thing you're told regarding the subject, so what DO you want?
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pyrbob's Avatar
United States
1943 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2008  09:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pyrbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jefferyice1, I am a machinist and own a machine shop. I can tell you a machinist worth half his weight can turn a coin in a lathe. It is not hard. The round swirl marks are from the cutting tool as the coin spins. The coin is actually cut with a cutting tool and not ground. I agree with everyone above, especially coppercoins. You are getting answers from people who have made these mistakes in the past and are trying to help you so you don't continue to make them. That is one of the main purposes of posting on here and should be the purpose you started this thread. I'm sorry you can't send the coin back but chalk it up to education. We all have an education collection.
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KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2008  2:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know what to add here, other than I collect IHC die varieties and I think I know something about this series. To my knowledge, I haven't heard of a single IHC that was struck with a die missing--or somehow using a blank die. How would this possibly happen? It hasn't. Then again, that's a totally moot point because the coin itself shows the cause quite clearly--and has been covered already. To me, it appears it was going to be manufactured into a button or fitted with a clip on the reverse.

"its going to be an 80.00 lesson as there is no return on the live auction."

I'm sorry to hear that--and that somebody sold this coin on the pretext of being struck this way. If this is a legitimate dealer, you should demand a refund.
Edited by KurtS
06/01/2008 2:47 pm
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jeffreyice1's Avatar
United States
381 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2008  9:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jeffreyice1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not saying everyone is wrong, I'm just holding out hope that this is what was advertised(I see nothing here for Grinding or Lathe). I cant see the swirl marks on the coin and I was the one that brough up the lathe as that was the only way I could see it being made as for grinding it would be impossible (I built my daughter grib on a lathe 23 years ago). pyrbob: (This is my point) I don't see swirl marks on this coin and that's why I say it was made (Or faked) in a different fashion.

I really appreciate every one's input as this is a learning process (all be it expensive).

PS It does closely resemble a button compared to a magic trick, It would have to cover a smaller coin and is not set like the pic from
foundinrolls. Does anyone have info on the button coins?

Thanks
Edited by jeffreyice1
06/01/2008 10:46 pm
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foundinrolls's Avatar
United States
3507 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2008  12:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
http://www.wildnotions.com/coin.htm

That link will show you the reverses of coins that were turned into buttons. Some are very simple such as yours but some are very ornate as the ones shown at that link.

Still the basic point that we are trying to pass on to you is that whatever the reason and whatever was done to the coin it is an $80.00 lesson on what not to buy as an error. There are only so many possibilities as to how an error can occur. They are all related to the Minting process. Those of us who have studied the process and have seen tens of thousands of real error coins can look at a coin and usually in two seconds or less determine when a coin is damaged outside the Mint or if it warrants a closer look.

There is simply no operation at the Mint that can cause a coin to look like yours. It is an expensive lesson and no amount of hope is going to change the coin from a damaged one into an error.

We often suggest doing research before a purchase is made. Unfortunately the process was, in this situation done in reverse. It is always a tough pill to swallow but the end result is an $80.00 check going out for a cent worth the amount of scrap copper.



Thanks,
Bill

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foundinrolls's Avatar
United States
3507 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2008  12:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On another part of the thread: Here is a response about coin mutilation and the law. Notice that motive is important. The reason must be to commit fraud. An example, hollowing out a silver coin and filling it with a base metal so that the value of the coin is knowingly less than when it was issued, then fraudulently and knowingly circulating it. Another example goes back to years ago when parts of a coin were shaved off for the precious metal and the coin, then underweight would be passed while the person shaving the coin was collecting the precious metal for profit.

In numismatics today, people who fraudulently cut a piece from a coin and then sell it as an incomplete planchet error would be violating the statute.

Coins that are damaged for purposes other than fraud don't fall into this otherwise if you had money that was damaged in a fire for example, they could put you in jail. It's not the intent of the law.

It is not illegal to own a Magician's coin, for example as they are not advertised to be anything else. If a Magician's coin is being sold as a "rare error coin", for example that's fraud and subject to a penalty.

Defacing coins for non-fraudulent reasons such as making buttons or Magician's coins is not the intended target of the law:

United States Code
TITLE 18
PART I
CHAPTER 17
§ 331. Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/us...---000-.html

"Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes,
falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of
the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current
or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States;
or whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or
sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into
the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered,
defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or
lightened— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
five years, or both."

Like the statute I previously discussed, prior to 1994 when this law
was amended, the statute read "fined not more than $2,000". This was
changed in 1994 to read "shall be fined under this title" which
effectively gives the court the authority to impose a fine at its
discretion. Of course the imprisonment terms mentioned in the statute
speaks for itself.


I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Bill
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2008  06:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
At one time there was a law that made altering coins illegal. It was passed to combat the love token fad of the 1870's and 80's. That law was repealed around 1918.
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halfabustisbetter's Avatar
United States
1984 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2008  07:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add halfabustisbetter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm not saying everyone is wrong, I'm just holding out hope that this is what was advertised


Wow, that's a cool error! Great job!

(That's what you wanted to hear, right?)
Edited by halfabustisbetter
06/02/2008 10:17 am
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amac44's Avatar
United States
3242 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2008  07:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add amac44 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
how many No's will take to see the Light?
As one that been down this road FIR & CC are right 99.9% of the time
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coppercoins's Avatar
United States
7629 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2008  07:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coppercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Actually around 97.4% ::wink::

Bill is right 99.9% of the time.
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