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Maria Theresia Talers 1741 - 1780

 
 
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 Posted 07/11/2018  09:30 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Svenofthenorth to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have read many posts on the forum regarding 1780 re-strikes of Theresia Talers, and the information has been invaluable, thank you for sharing all of your expertise.
I have purchased nearly all of the books available regarding MTTs, however there does not appear to be a resource listing typical mint dimensions and weights for these earlier strikes.
I am collecting MTTs from 1741 to 1779 (and have a few 1780 variants), but would like to ask if anyone else in the forum is collecting the same range. I came across this 1762 Hall (dav 1121) with quite unusual arrows on the letter E. Is this common?
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 Posted 07/11/2018  12:23 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's unusual and rather interesting. I looked at a few of Hall mint 1749-1769 Thalers which have various shapes on the middle bar of the E, ranging from a sort of "spade" shape on a 1749 to a backwards arrow (upside-down triangle) shape on a 1762, but have not seen one with such sharply defined forward "arrow" appearance. Based on the rest of the lettering, several letters have been recut; that along with the concavity and the flat fields suggests to me that this was a very worn-out obverse die which was re-engraved and recut to continue in service. Whomever did the recutting on the letters probably used a bit of "artistic licence" on the middle bar of the E or couldn't be bothered approximating the "spade" shape more closely.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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United Kingdom
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 Posted 07/11/2018  9:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Svenofthenorth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Paralyse thank you for your reply. I think you are very right regarding artistic license with modification of the dies. I have looked at several pictures of Hall Talers for this year and the central stems of the letter E, as you said, vary in their shape.
I Recently purchased a 1780 taler for the strange lengthened feather below the shield, a bit strange also. Do you know of any existing literature on MTTs that lists typical sizes and weight ranges by year or by “type”

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 Posted 07/12/2018  01:57 am  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thalers were the standard silver unit of trade in the 18th c. for Austria and Germany along with gold guldens/florins and ducats.

As a result, the weight was standardized and tightly controlled, amazingly so considering the age in which they were being struck. Size varied depending on planchet -- some series (the Madonna Konventionsthaler of Bavaria from 1760-1780s come to mind) varied as much as 3mm in diameter coin-to-coin (40-43mm) but the weight was unfailingly very close to 27.92g and the fineness was set at 0.833. Not so much for the design -- thanks to shorter die life, some estimates say that for the 1780-SF saltire MTT's over 40 die pairings exist.

The Austrian Speciesthaler MTT's of 1746-1765 are almost universally 40 mm and 28.82g at 0.875 fineness. Coins that were overweight were adjusted via file marks. Underweight coins by more than a couple of tenths of a gram were melted and restruck. Not only did this inspire a great deal of confidence in the intrinsic metal value of the Thaler, it greatly discouraged thieves since clipping, base metal plugging, edge filing and such were easily detected, especially when combined with edge lettering.

The one you posted (1780) assuming it's a brooch without pearls looks like an issue from Günzburg based on the 5 pearl shield, crown, and long feathers. cf. Hafner 25-32 and Leypold nrs. 1 & 5 and see if you can find an exact match. It's an AUST DUX reverse which also helps narrow the field.
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Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 07/12/2018  11:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Svenofthenorth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks again Paralyse. The posted coin I believe to be a Hafner 28b, but identifying 1780 coins can be a difficult journey. The Hafner Lexicon and Guenter website are excellent points of reference, but as discussed on this forum previously, are a bit dated.
Using more updated knowledge it would be great for someone to re-format and update a detailed English Language "catalogue" for MTTs. Time consuming I guess but certainly worth it (a very selfish opinion of course)
I am based in the UK and there aren't many other people, that I am aware of, that collect MTTs (I would love to be proven wrong). I depend so much on experts like yourself and other forum members to identify 1780 strikes. I have several that I can't positively identify and I won't waste experts time by posting a list of coins to identify.
For this reason I took the "easier" and more interesting option of collecting 1741 - 1779 Talers, but as explained on here, they can be illusive and quite expensive at auction.
I am a relatively new collector and don't want to lose interest due to frustration and lack of knowledge, so any advice as to more recent literature or alternative sites for MTT collectors would be very much appreciated.
My apologies for wasting your valuable time.
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 Posted 07/12/2018  4:46 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Forgot ...

Also, I am not an expert by any means, just a hobbyist. And discussions like this are far from a waste of time.

MTT's have a solid collector base pretty much everywhere but like many old crown-size coins that collector base is ageing due to limited supply, constant demand, and rising values; look at pillar-type 8 reales, or German States city view thalers / Bavarian Madonna thalers, and here in the US you are looking at $300 minimum to find a coin you'd actually be pleased to own without being scared of counterfeits and doctoring, and that's a low-ball estimate. The same thing is happening in the market for American early coppers, where rising values have made entry into the market difficult for many new collectors and competition for scarce varieties results in bidding wars with some regularity.

New collectors for old series with long histories (non-Roman/Greek ancients, medieval issues, thalers, or reales) are often frustrated with the lack of modern books and online information, or the cost of entry when such materials are available. Generally speaking, the more narrow the focus of the collector, the more expensive the books and the more obscure the information.

In addition, MTT's have been a collector interest for a long time, and there may simply not be much new information left to discover or research that hasn't already been put to print somewhere. The authoritative books for American Large Cents (Sheldon & Newcomb) are decades old, and even more "modern" research into die states and varieties (1990s) still refer heavily back to those two sources.

If you love MTT's and want to make a go at having them as your collecting interest (and it sounds like you already have many of the primary references!) then your best bet is to get in touch with the people who do the research and write the books. I think you will find that most of them will be happy to be able to discuss their passion and share it with you, and you can gain a lot of knowledge in return -- just because there hasn't been new PUBLISHED research doesn't mean that no research was done; merely that it may not be worth the expense to publish it mass-market, but it can be available if you ask for it.

edit: I forgot to mention -- 1780-dated MTT restrikes have been made nearly continuously for 238 years and continue to be made. Even though the basic design has not changed radically in that period, the engravers and die-cutters have, which creates a constant source of "new" varieties, unlike, say, Liberty Cap large cents, which have not been struck since 1795 after being first struck in 1793.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Edited by paralyse
07/12/2018 4:51 pm
New Member
United Kingdom
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 Posted 07/13/2018  10:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Svenofthenorth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are so right about the market and rising prices. They started off a craze for collecting full ranges of coins from the change people receive daily and this has grown the coin collector craze. Never ending commemorative coins and gold sovereigns for every birthday anniversary wedding etc. Great for the various mints out there but harder for the collectors to complete their sets.

I kind of blame this forum (nicely) for my new found obsession with MTTs and thought at the time it was a way to disassociate myself from the new change checking collectors. How wrong I was. As you say there is a huge world wide interest in these and pillar reales to name just two.
Literature on the subject is out there, but the old style cataloging is not the best and is often confusing ( as mentioned on here by a couple of members). A new approach and a new lay out may not be the best idea as it would attract many more collectors and prices would rise even further.
I thought the same as yourself regarding contacting the people who do the research and who write the articles and books, however that is not as easy as it seems. There are a couple of forum members on here that I would like to contact but I am unable to do so as a new member. There are forums elsewhere and it is pure luck if they choose to reply to any posts on the subject. I certainly don’t blame them as they must have enough going on, to answer repetitive posts on the subject. I hate being that unwanted pest.
I have photographed, measured and weighed all of the MTTs I own, thinking that it may help with research for others and one day that may be the case.
Let us hope that after Brexit the cost of buying and importing coins from the US comes down, but then again that may introduce more collectors from here into the market etc etc
If there are any specific coins You are looking for that I can look out for please don’t hesitate to let me know
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