Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Animals On A Mysterious Copper Token From The 17th Century

 
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
678 Posts
 Posted 07/15/2018  4:20 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Curious as a coin can be, a mystery like the pair of coins posted earlier this month

observe the obverse:


monkey and turtle
DISSIDET QUOD IMPAR EST

the text refers to a famous piece of literature from the Netherlands
Sinne- en minnebeelden - levensraadsels Jacob Cats, 1627

reverse:
unknown coat of arms with more animals
INCERTUS CANO CRAS



thanks for your suggestions
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
69544 Posts
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
678 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2018  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
one more piece of the puzzle:

here is the engraving from 1627 which accompanies the poems dealing with the turtle and monkey
Jabob Cats' Sinne- en minnebeelden - levensraadsels (1627)
read more about this work on the following website
http://emblems.let.uu.nl/c1627_intr...tml?lang=eng



the latin text under the engraving is DISSIDET QUOD IMPAR EST
(keep separated what is different)
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
7823 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2018  11:39 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ville Schiltigheim (Alsace) has similar arms: dans ecu d'argent, trois merlettes, deux et une (three martlets, two and one, against an argent shield) topped by a French chapel-style helmet and scrollwork. This has a nice possible connection to yours since those arms were granted by royal decree to the city by none other than Louis XIV in 1697.

But even a bit older, we can find the arms of Waspik (in The Netherlands, Noord-Brabant), granted and emblazoned in 1623 by Jonkheer (Lord) Jan van Ravenschot:

NL: Een blaauw schild beladen met 3 vogels of kauwen van goud, geplaatst 2 en 1.

EN: A blue shield emblazoned with 3 gold birds or jackdaws, placed 2 and 1.

This coat of arms is the same as that of Jhr. Ravenschot, and the motto associated with Ravenschot/Ravenscot is INCERTVS CANTO CRAS -- attested in 1751 on a fresco panel at the monastery (now church) in Houthem, Sint-Gerlachus.

The Netherlands connection makes more sense in light of the allusion to the poem. Let's go yet deeper:

From Van Orden, 1825, a reference on Historiepenningen:

"1210. Dissidit quod impar est / Afbeelding een aap zittende bij een schilpad

(kz.) Incertus cano cras 1634 / Afbeelding het fraaije wapenschild van E Ravenschot zie hetzelve op de leg penningen bij VAN LooN 2 d pag 227. sommige handschriften hadden camo en canto."

I read that as:

"DISSIDIT QUOD IMPAR EST / Image of a monkey sitting by a turtle"

and

"INCERTUS CANO CRAS / Image of the fine (?) coat of arms of E. Ravenschot as seen on the lay-pennies (?) in Van Loon's 2nd folio, page 227. Some manuscripts had 'cano' for 'canto.'"

This would make the actual motto INCERTUS CANTO CRAS...

Okay, INCERTUS = unclear or uncertain, CANTO = song, but CRAS..well, how about CRASTINUS, i.e. on the morrow/tomorrow? That makes more sense to me.

That also dates your "historiepenning" to 1634.

I'll post more if I run across more interesting information.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Edited by paralyse
07/17/2018 11:43 pm
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
678 Posts
 Posted 07/18/2018  4:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
excellent suggestions, Paralyse, thanks for your analysis !

Van Orden (1825) is one of the key references for the description of jetons from the Netherlands, together with Gerard Van Loon (1734) and Dugniolle (1827)

with 1634 as search item it is easy to locate this piece in Dugniolle (#3892), currently without photographic support
http://www.dugniolle.com/dugniolle3801-3900.html

I did some further research today on jonckheer Engelbert van Raveschot who lived on the castle of Ruwenberg near s'Hertogenbosch in Noord-Brabant, currently The Netherlands

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grote_Ruwenberg

Engelbert van Raveschot was member of the board of governors of the city of Brussels in the period 1610-1650.
https://books.google.be/books?id=UW...t%22&f=false

The city hall of Brussels (one of the most beautiful gothic buildings ever built) has an interesting painting "La Vierge aux magistrats" made by Anton Sallaert in 1634, the same year as the coin of this post. The magistrate on the right is Engelbert van Raveschot with the coat of arms of the Raveschot in front of him.

part of the painting showing Engelbert van Raveschot on the right


detail of the coat of arms which matches the description by Paralyse and the image on the reverse side of the coin



More details about this painting can be found in an interesting book "Brusselaaers in beeld" (in Dutch)
https://www.cairn.info/revue-cahier...page-289.htm

several reached in very short time : date, references for this coin and person who is behind its production.

the next question is why Engelbert van Raveschot made a jeton with the strange link to the poetry of Jacob Cats in 1634
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
7823 Posts
 Posted 07/18/2018  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To me this jeton is an example of a personal device (a heraldic badge) as seen throughout Europe in the 16th & 17th c.

Usually, one side would feature the coat of arms of an individual or his family or lineage. The other side would have a short motto or inscription and an engraving or image. The image and motto were supposed to reflect on a perceived quality of that particular family, in either a straightforward way or as a puzzle / rebus.

Sometimes the images were allegorical in nature: a musical instrument might symbolize "harmony", a shepherd and sheep "peace", a knight in a suit of armor "virtuousness", a religious motif or Biblical scene for "piety", a sword and shield for "military prowess", etc.

Other times animals were used as a theme based on the perceived qualities of those animals, realistically or in the manner of fables: a beaver for industrious/hard working, a wildcat for ferocity, a fox for craftiness and cunning, a squirrel for frugality, etc.

Cats' book with the poem referred to here is an emblematic book: more on this when I get home...
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
678 Posts
 Posted 07/19/2018  6:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
To me this jeton is an example of a personal device (a heraldic badge) as seen throughout Europe in the 16th & 17th c


I agree ! For The Netherlands, such heraldic jetons were especially popular in the Southern Provinces during the 17th century.

Can we understand the motivation of Engelbert van Raveschot to produce this particular jeton? Maybe this is a clue:

We should go back to the painting of Anton Sallaert from 1634: Engelbert is wearing a medal. This is very interesting, one of the few examples of a "snapshot" of a first owner of a medal, wearing it on a special occasion.



This medal (made in 1622 by the Flemish medallist Waterloos (1600-1684)) is a memory to funeral of Archduke Albert of Austria (1559-1621), Governor of the Low countries. A very rare piece only given to persons in the close circle around the archduke. One of the few surviving pieces today is present in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London (museum no A.395-1910).



Engelbert van Raveschot was member of this small circle, perhaps not important enough to be one of the men to carry the coffin of the archduke, but one of the nobility present at the funeral procession.

This memory apparently seems important to him. I wrote before in another thread http://goccf.com/t/301479&whichpage=55#2757378) that the two Archdukes, Albert of Austria and Isabella of Spain, were immensely popular in the Southern Netherlands where they brought back prosperity and "oxygen" for normal life. In the decades before the marriage of the archdukes (1599) the Netherlands were ravaged by the most savage manifestations of war (massacres of whole cities, numerous sieges, looting etc etc) destroying one of the most wealthy societies of that age. The reign of the archdukes Albert and Isabella brought new hope in the country. So there were good reasons why the everyone loved the archdukes.

In december 1633 Isabella died. The 80 years war was resumed and was fought in particular in current Noord Brabant, the region home to the Raveschot family. This may have motivated Engelbert in 1634 to make a Jeton with the inscription

INCERTUS CANO CRAS

uncertain the song of tomorrow




Combined portraits of Isabella Clara Eugenia of Spain (12 August 1566 - 1 December 1633) Albert, Archduke of Austria (15 November 1559 - 13 July 1621), sovereigns of the Spanish Netherlands. Copy of unknown master after originals from Frans Pourbus the younger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alber...Albrecht.jpg
Edited by 1c5d7n5m
07/19/2018 6:33 pm
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
678 Posts
 Posted 07/20/2018  10:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting new development:

the online Dugniolle database now features the pictures of a second piece of this type: under number 3892

http://www.dugniolle.com/dugniolle3801-3900.html

It is clear from both coins that the monkey is giving something to the turtle; there is an identical shape just left and above the upper hand, as if thrown to the turtle

it could be food - but Van Orden in his description does not mention that the monkey is feeding the turtle

see detail below from the piece of this thread; it may be a significant detail, placed in the center of the obverse

Edited by 1c5d7n5m
07/20/2018 10:48 am
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
678 Posts
 Posted 07/20/2018  3:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
because of help from Paul van der Zee from dugniolle.com I am most happy to show photo's of the second piece, which is part of the nationale numismatische collectie in the Netherlands
https://www.dnb.nl/en/about-dnb/nat...ie/index.jsp

this second piece is spectacular in details, much better preserved than the one of this thread; interesting details can be seen (like the strange dolphin on top of the family coat of arms); and the monkey IS feeding the turtle




time to conclude this story

van Raveschot understood that the 80-years war had ripped the 17-provinces of the Netherlands apart beyond repair; the result was final: a Southern entity (the Spanish Netherlands) and a Northern part (the Dutch Republic). In particular the duchy of Brabant, where Engelbert van Raveschot lived, suffered badly for seven decades (three generation !) and was split in Northern Brabant and a Soutern province (this is still the situation today).

With this jeton, van Raveschot made a political statement, that perhaps the two countries should go each their own way. This is why he chose the emblem of the famous Dutch poet Jacob Cats, who wanted to say with DISSIDET QVOD IMPAR EST the following:

Conditions that farre disagree,
May not together well pared bee.


The od-conceited Ape that is full of delight and sporte,
Flyeth from the Torteise (no mans ioy) amazed in this sorte.
The Reason why the Ape cannot the Torteise well indure,
It is because they differ much in disposition sure.
Your joviall disposition, Sweet-hart, let ne'ere be bent,
Unto that Rusticque clowne which late, your frendes desyrde consent.
If I Sweet-hart obtayne you not, attend a while for one,
Whose nature differs lesse from youres, then myne; or else take none.


translation from Cats - source:
Sinne- en minnebeelden - levensraadsels Jacob Cats, 1627
http://emblems.let.uu.nl/c1627_intr...tml?lang=eng

When my interpretation is true, it means that Engelbert van Raveschot has a visionary idea. Between this jeton and final peace agreement it took another 14 more years of war before all parties agreed that separating the two species was the best option for all. The treaty of Muenster (1648) officially ended the 80-years war between the Netherlands and Spain and made it possible for the turtle and the monkey to live as peaceful neighbors.

http://www1.umassd.edu/euro/resourc...chrep/14.pdf

Thank you, Paralyse and thank you Paul van der Zee, for helping me to dig into the history of this mysterious little piece of copper. As with the jeton of Calvin and Servet, this type of digging makes coin or medal or jeton collection a wonderful hobby!

A coin of cats and raven, which do not go very well together, but thrive separated in the obverse and reverse sides.
Edited by 1c5d7n5m
07/20/2018 4:09 pm
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
69544 Posts
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
678 Posts
 Posted 07/22/2018  04:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
very interesting journey

thanks jbuck !

Yesterday I found in old and forgotten numismatic literature that my journey is not the first of its kind

Edouard Vanden Broeck describes the only two known jetons of Engelbert van Raveschot in Revue Belge de Numismatique (vol 59, 1903) in a paper about jetons from magistrates from the city of Brussels. The drawing in this article is of interest:



The left piece from 1634 is identical to the jeton of this thread. A new fact is the mint mark of the city of Brussels. The jeton to the right (1636) was issued by van Raveschot as evidenced by the coat of arms with the three ravens on the obverse. We see that a raven is feeding the prophet Elias. The reverse shows Fortuna standing on a globe (a motive used before in jetons from The Netherlands)

This second jeton (Dugniolle 3902) is described by Gerard van Loon (II, page 223) in the context of severe famine striking the Spanish Netherlands in the years 1634 and 1635. But in 1636 good fortune returned to the Southern provinces. The severy famine in 1634 may explain the feeding detail (compare the two jetons below).



A detail I did not mention before is that Engelbert van Raveschot was magistrate of the city of Brussels not only as echevin (schepen) but also as supervisor of the economically important canal (dug between 1550 and 1560 between Brussels and the Scheld river), providing a food chain between Brussels and the port of Antwerp.
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
678 Posts
 Posted 07/25/2018  07:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
one more detail explained:

Dolphins are used in heraldry in connection to the sea.
Examples are dolphins in the coat-of-arms of seaports like
Dunkirk
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...unkerque.svg
Brighton
http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/inde...on_(England)

this symbol on the crest of the van Raveschot coat-of-arms is in agreement with the job of supervisor of the canal between Brussels and the Scheldt (port of Antwerp)

interestingly, such position gave the magistrate the right to produce jetons (one example of quite a few is Dugn. 3153)
New Member
Belgium
1 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2018  2:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hrnaba to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting discussion. Coins are new to me and I was not aware of such personal jetons.

Maybe I can contribute to the identity of the former owner of this object: Engelbert van Ravenschot.

He was a member of a well-known family of Leuven, in the Southern Netherlands, that moved to Brussels in the 16th century. His father Charles, counselor and echevin in Leuven, married a van der Noot, one of the most prominent families of Brussels. Englebert was incorporated in Brussels' ancient lineages in 1598 (= families stemming through paternal or maternal line from the 7 families that dominated the city in the middle ages, giving them the right to participate to the city's government). In Leuven, the family was also admitted in the ancient lineages and occupied posts in the government. A Ludovicus Ravescot, printer in Leuven in the period 1485-88, is renowned for its high quality bookbinding.

In one of the posts above Engelbert van Ravenschot is confused with Hubert Engelbert van Raveschot who lived on the castle of Ruwenberg near s'Hertogenbosch in North-Brabant. These are different persons belonging to distinct families, despite the fact that they bear similar coat of arms. The same applies to the prominent Raveschoot family from Ghent (13th-16th century) : although in ancient genealogical manuscripts all these families are presented as one, these documents are full of obvious mistakes and do not present any verifiable evidence. My research so far indicates that there is no obvious connection between these families, although I have not researched the origin of Northern Netherlands Raveschoot to a sufficient extent. The coat of arms of knight Adrian van Raveschoot deceased in Ghent in 1506 are the same as those on this jeton, including the dolphin on top. I suppose that the Raveschot's of Leuven/Brussels have exploited the fame of their homonyms of Ghent to support their own fame and nobility status by adopting the same coat of arms. The three ravens on the shield can suit any 'Raveschoot' family since 'Rave' stands for 'raven'.
Edited by Hrnaba
10/10/2018 3:42 pm
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
69544 Posts
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Canada
7693 Posts
 Posted 10/12/2018  7:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dorado to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ Hrnaba

To the Forum.
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
678 Posts
 Posted 12/02/2018  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Hrnaba

thank you for adding interesting elements to the discussion; as you point out the distinction between the different van Ravenschot families is important for an attempt to understand the message of the jeton

during the reign of Charles V, Philip II and the archdukes Albert and Isabella, the cities of Leuven, s'Hertogenbosch and Brussels belonged to the same political entity: the duchy Brabant; but by 1634 the division into a Northern province, part of the Dutch Republic and the Southern part was taking place, one example being the capture of s'Hertogenbosch by Frederik Hendrik (see splendid painting by Pauwels van Hillegaert, c. 1631 . https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/en/collection/SK-A-848)

perhaps this profound change in The Netherlands and a longing for stable peace after so many decades of conflict inspired the Brussels magistrate Engelbert van Ravenschot to produce this particular little copper jeton.

  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Coin Community Member eBay Sales

Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.27 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05