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Experimental Silver Certificates

 
 
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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 08/22/2018  4:38 pm Show Profile   Check BadDog's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Didn't want to hijack jmorgan's thread on his great looking SCs with this, but a couple of folks mentioned experimentals, which raised some questions in my mind, so I'm starting a new topic

As far as I know, there were 4 issues of experimentals - series 1928, 1928A, 1935 and 1935A (any others I missed?)

First question - since the 28 and 28A were printed at the same time, using the same papers, do you consider them to be different experiments? If you collect experimentals, would you get both or just one or the other?

Second question - the 28, 28A had a Z-B block control group and the 35 had a C-B block control group. Again, as far as I know, the control groups were just printed on the regular paper. So, if you collect experimentals, do you collect the control blocks or consider them to be just regular notes of the series?

Final question, do you even collect the 28/28A/35 experimentals? or just stick with the 35A? It seems like the 35A, with those big red letters, is the experimental that is included in most of the guide books, whereas the others may or may not be.

I have the 35A R/S but have never really looked at the others. Just wondering what others collect/think about these
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291 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2018  6:04 pm  Show Profile   Check Onedollarbillnut's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Onedollarbillnut to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's 1928-A, 1928-B, 1935, 1935-A silver certificates.
1963 & 1977-A federal reserve notes. Also 1977-A in the $10 federal reserve note
Tim Hughes
Edited by Onedollarbillnut
08/22/2018 6:13 pm
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United States
291 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2018  6:13 pm  Show Profile   Check Onedollarbillnut's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Onedollarbillnut to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1928-A: XB, YB, ZB blocks
1928-B: XB, YB, ZB blocks
1935: AB, BB, CB blocks
1935-A: SC block red R & S
1963 CA block Gilbert test paper
1977-A EH block Natick test paper
1977-A E* block $10 Natick test paper
Tim Hughes
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 Posted 08/22/2018  7:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
1928-A: XB, YB, ZB blocks
1928-B: XB, YB, ZB blocks
1935: AB, BB, CB blocks
1935-A: SC block red R & S


I've got an example of each except the 1935 B-B block.
Mine are not the best examples you'll ever see but they are good enough for me.

I'm aware of the Gilbert and Natick tests but haven't seriously looked for any ... yet.
Describe it as if there were no picture.
Picture it as if there were no description.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 08/22/2018  7:17 pm  Show Profile   Check BadDog's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
1928-A: XB, YB, ZB blocks
1928-B: XB, YB, ZB blocks
1935: AB, BB, CB blocks
1935-A: SC block red R & S


Yes, these are the experimentals I referenced in my questions. I'm aware that there are other non-SC experimentals, but I don't think I missed any SC experimentals.

So, the questions still stand. Anyone with any thoughts on them?
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 Posted 08/22/2018  11:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CelticKnot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My thoughts are 1) they are awesome notes and 2) they are an investment, especially in higher grades.

I would definitely like to add them to my collection at some point. Pretty sure I would only buy graded unless the price was really good.
Edited by CelticKnot
08/22/2018 11:12 pm
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 Posted 08/23/2018  04:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 1928A, 1928B, and 1935 experimentals are on my radar, but have not been prioritized.

Early on, I bought the 1935A R & S notes, mostly because I thought they looked cool.
I continued with extensive research on 1963 Gilbert notes, 1977A Naticks and 1988A, 1993 and 1995 Web-Fed.

Personally speaking, I'm surprised the PM collecting community doesn't get more exciting about the extreme rarity of notes printed on Gilbert Security Paper. With only one supplier of security paper since 1861 (Crane), you would think it would be considered a big deal. After all, PAPER is the main ingredient of what we collect.

Edited to add; Concering the 1935A R & S notes, pages149 & 150 of the book Bureau of Engraving and Printing 100 Years (published 1962) references the mindset in 1944 of an experiment aimed at improving the quality of currency paper by the addition of certain chemicals during the manufacturing process. Notes with the special paper bore a small capital "S" printed in red on the face in the lower right corner adjacent to the Treasury seal. Those printed on regular paper were similarly identified with the letter "R". Approximately 1 million notes of each type were placed in circulation in June 1944. A few months later the notes began to trickle in for redemption but, unfortunately the trickle did not grow. The returns never reached a volume sufficient for making a valid analysis. Although no publicity was given, the public at large apparently was quick to observe the special markings on the notes. Rather than spend the bills, and keep them in circulation, John Q. Citizen evidently decided to retain those notes that came his way as curious.
Edited by SteveInTampa
08/23/2018 05:06 am
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 Posted 08/23/2018  12:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting background, thanks!
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 Posted 08/23/2018  6:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CelticKnot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It makes sense. If I saw an interesting note like that I'd certainly squirrel it away. I know a dollar was a bigger deal 80+ years ago, but still.
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 Posted 08/23/2018  7:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Although not SCs, shall we include the C.O.P.E experimental test notes (estimates are that 1000 were printed with 400 saved)?
BTW, The Natick error note (with serial number on back) is available in PCGS-65 PPQ for a price!
Edited by jimbucks
08/23/2018 8:07 pm
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 Posted 08/23/2018  7:37 pm  Show Profile   Check BadDog's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
. The returns never reached a volume sufficient for making a valid analysis. ...


I'm not so sure it would have made a difference. From what I've read, they did get enough of the 28/28A notes back (without those big red letters, the public didn't realize there was any difference from regular notes) to do an analysis, but there aren't any records that indicate they actually did any analysis
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 Posted 08/24/2018  06:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Please tell us more about experimental C.O.P.E. notes @jimbucks.

C.O.P.E. was used from series 1969B up to late 2012, when is was replaced by L.E.P.E.
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 Posted 08/26/2018  11:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kurrency Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice listing of the experimental issues. I'd collect them by the block for each series.

KK
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 Posted 08/26/2018  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
C.O.P.E. notes are test notes, printed with a serial number only on 1 side. Apparently 4 packages of 100 notes each from a printing of 1,000 are known. I have seen 100 note packs for sale, as well as individual items. I would consider them an oddity, rather than a mainstream collectible and can be found for sale without much effort.

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 Posted 08/26/2018  5:20 pm  Show Profile   Check BadDog's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I wonder what these notes were testing

They just printed the serial numbers on the paper and not the entire 3rd printing? and they only made 4 straps of notes? what could they have been testing with such a small sample size?

If I understand the COPE printing process correctly, it started with 32 note sheets, cut them into 16 note sheets, did the 3rd printing, examined and replaced (as needed) the 16 note sheets, cut the 16 note sheets into 2 note sheets, cut the 2 note sheets into single notes, gathered 100 notes into a strap, gathered 10 straps into a bundle and then 4 bundles into a brick.

If they let the machine do its work (rather than intervening with hand operations) it seems like they would have had to start with at least 100 32 note sized sheets in order to get even one strap out of the process. If they stopped the process after strapping, then they would have had 32 straps at that point, and not just 4.

There has to be more to this story
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 Posted 10/07/2018  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GregAlex to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought experimental notes were actually put into circulation, whereas test notes were just used to test the ability of a printing press. It would be hard to pass those COPE notes in a store, so I'm not sure why "experimental" is on the slab.
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