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Some good reading on Gerry Fortin's blog about the recent carnage at PCGS

 
 
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 Posted 11/20/2018  9:45 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I originally wanted to post some excerpts from the blog but I'm not sure if there would be copyright or duplicate content issues.

The posts about PCGS dates back to about a week ago. So you'll have to scroll down and skim through the content to read the PCGS comments. David Hall's removal was also discussed.

http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/DailyBlog.htm

Hi, my name is MikeF and I'm a degenerate coin collector. I also like adventure, big trucks, long walks on the beach and the Kansas City Chiefs.
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 Posted 11/20/2018  10:27 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gerry's a true numismatist. I trust him and respect him, and have bought several coins from him that were all well above expectations.

With that out of the way, I'll come right out and say it -- he's wrong. No, I don't have his resume, or even a fraction of his skills and expertise, but the very last thing this hobby needs right now is for TPG's to relax grading standards!

To summarize Gerry's recent post, some coins from the collection of Dr. Glenn Peterson (numismatist, author, BHNC, etc.) were recently submitted to PCGS, including some that were already previously holdered by NGC, and an entire Dansco of Liberty Seated half dimes. Many of the coins did not cross, and of the LS half dimes, quite a few came back Details and the others received extremely conservative grades.

These results, combined with other recent submissions and the management shake-up at PCGS, has led him to decide he's going to be using NGC for his submissions going forward.

One of the key things he mentions in his post is that he is disappointed that in the future, "old-time" collections submitted for pedigree/slabbing may be graded too conservatively or assigned Details designations that he feels are unwarranted.

Now, Mr. Fortin has a heck of an eye for coins. One of the best in the business. When combined with the recent turnover at PCGS, you might be tempted to think that he's nailed it -- PCGS has gone off the rails and no longer has any idea what they're doing when it comes to grading.

However, let's frame the discussion in a different context.

This is the first time in a LONG time that a major coin dealer who is a well-respected expert in several coin series has submitted blue-ribbon pedigree coins of impeccable provenance...and NOT been the beneficiary of "loose" grading, special treatment, gradeflation, "market acceptability" instead of details grades, and a large variety of other ailments afflicting the TPG's over the last decade or more.

With that being said, my question now is more along the lines of "Is he upset because he feels that the coins were unfairly graded, or is he upset because the graders didn't apply the usual 'loose' grading afforded to certain well-known dealers?"

I'm pretty sure it's a combination of all of the above. Some of the coins were probably undergraded, or unfairly detailed. (My own recent submissions to PCGS seem to support this.) However, what about the coins that may have been overgraded, or should have been details but got by?

Dealers, and especially numismatists of Gerry's reputation and qualifications, SHOULD be advocating for a return to conservative but fair grading standards by the TPG's. Instead, Mr. Fortin is arguing that PCGS is grading too conservatively, a position which is at odds with the majority opinion within some of the older coin clubs such as EAC, along with other well-respected numismatists and dealers such as Rick Snow, who have repeatedly pointed out the constant gradeflation, favoritism, and inconsistent grading standards applied by PCGS, NGC, and ANACS.

With all respect due to Mr. Fortin, the hobby benefits as a whole if TPG's improve their standards, their consistency, and eliminate overgrading.

I would love to hear LSCC/JRCS members' opinions on this subject as well -- two of the older and very highly respected coin clubs -- and see how they feel about the "Peterson affair" given Dr. Peterson's status within their communities.

Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 11/20/2018  10:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dealers crying they didn't get the grades they wanted is nothing new and will always happen. This is a good time for people to really think back on everything they've heard from the people upset the grades weren't high enough currently. Certain people like Legend/Laura put their money where their mouth is and love the new tighter standards, others.......



Edited by basebal21
11/20/2018 10:40 pm
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 Posted 11/20/2018  10:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

This is the first time in a LONG time that a major coin dealer who is a well-respected expert in several coin series has submitted blue-ribbon pedigree coins of impeccable provenance


Not at all. Who says those coins were ever the cream of the crop to begin with? Many TOP notch collections have been submitted in the last 5 years and still are.

I will just leave it at this do I don't get sued

Edited by basebal21
11/20/2018 10:44 pm
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 Posted 11/20/2018  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of the collections I had the opportunity to analyze at auction was Jon Boka's complete set of 1794 Large Cent varieties.

I performed a weighted grade analysis on each coin, 58 in total, and compared their new PCGS slab grade (they were slabbed before the sale in special holders by Heritage Auctions and PCGS) vs. previous grades assigned to those same coins by Bill Noyes & Del Bland, both of whom were intimately familiar with the series and the coins.

Out of 58 coins, 27 of those coins received at least a 5-point numerical "bump" versus their previous grades. 5 coins received a 10-point "bump", and one coin that was formerly AU ended up in a MS slab (S-31.)

Of the entire group, PCGS "agreed" with the Noyes & Bland grades on only two varieties (S-43 and S-69)

The S-60 went from a 30 to a 53; S-35, 30 to 50; S-25, 35 to 50; S-24, 40 to 53; S-22, 35 to 50.

Not one single coin out of fifty-eight went down vs. its previously assigned grade. The implication is that, according to PCGS, Messrs. Bland & Noyes "undergraded" 56 of the 58 coins in the sale.

When all was said and done, I calculated an average gradeflation of 12.8 points between former grade and new grade.

I would be interested to see the results of similar analysis on auctions of recently-slabbed major collections with known former grades prior to slabbing such as Newman, McClure, Duckor, etc. I would be genuinely surprised if the results were not broadly in line with those above.

One need not be an expert or a specialist to observe that many of the largest coin dealers -- whether brick and mortar or on eBay -- have historically received very "loose" grading, and frequent "market acceptable" net grades instead of details grades, especially on key date issues. Do the investigation yourself, and draw your own conclusions.

If anyone wants to see the Excel spreadsheet with the analysis I'll put it on my Google Drive or OneDrive.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Edited by paralyse
11/20/2018 10:58 pm
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 Posted 11/20/2018  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I performed a weighted grade analysis on each coin, 58 in total, and compared their new PCGS slab grade (they were slabbed before the sale) vs. previous grades assigned to those same coins by Bill Noyes & Del Bland, both of whom were intimately familiar with the series and the coins.


You know EAC isn't an official Their senior members can have big gaps in what they think because all an EAC grade is is one person usually.


Quote:
When all was said and done, I calculated an average gradeflation of 12.8 points between former grade and new grade.


There was no former grade. There was EAC people who are in their own world. I do not say that in bad way but things they find acceptable will get details graded and vice versa. It's an entirely different way to look at it and there is NO OFFICIAL EAC grade.


Quote:
One need not be an expert or a specialist to observe that many of the largest coin dealers -- whether brick and mortar or on eBay -- have historically received very "loose" grading,


Not true at all. But the one thing that post did do was hurt the NGC brand implying they can get better grades there
Edited by basebal21
11/20/2018 11:14 pm
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 Posted 11/20/2018  11:08 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do agree that NGC received a rather backhanded compliment.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 11/20/2018  11:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I do agree that NGC received a rather backhanded compliment.


I agree with that as well and not sure how they will handle that but that was not a favorable comment towards them in my opinion
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 Posted 11/20/2018  11:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Paralyse, very well written I agree with you 100%.
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 Posted 11/20/2018  11:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Optimist-numismatist to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Paralyse, very well written I agree with you 100%.



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 Posted 11/21/2018  1:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You know EAC isn't an official Their senior members can have big gaps in what they think because all an EAC grade is is one person usually.

But in the EAC community Del Bland and Bill Noyes are well known and known for their very strict grading. Del and Bill are to EAC what PCGS and NGC are to the collecting community at large.

One problem with Paralyse's grading comparison is he doesn't indicate who assigned the prior grades. Were those grades DEl or Bill, or were they PCGS or NGC? You can't do a straight comparison of EAC and TPG grades and say "there was a loosening and the grades went up" because they are graded using different standards/systems. OK it looks like they were assigned by Del and Bill. So what you are probably seeing is more the "average" EAC net downgrading from sharpness to EAC grade.
Gary Schmidt
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 Posted 11/21/2018  6:49 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Valid point, Mr. Conder. As usual, you are spot on. In most cases, the coins had grades from both; there were only a couple that were Bland-only, and I don't have it in front of me at work, but I can't remember any that were Noyes-only.

That's the main reason I would like to see a similar grade analysis done on a collection which was slabbed, say, 10-15 years ago, and then re-holdered for sale today, to make the comparison TPG vs TPG.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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