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Flandrian Double Groot Boldager (1346 To 1384 Ad)

 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1884 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2018  8:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@austrokiwi, I agree this coin should relate to the gros tournois family. The face value is 2 gros (dubbel groot, or as described in Gaillard, "lion d'argent deux gros").

I think by 1360-1380 the French gros tournois may be lower than 4 g. in mass? But the comparisons across time and/or countries are always complicated by the issue of silver content of the coins. As this was during the 100 years' war (not sure what this is called on the continent) there is also the angle of debasment of the denomination in some countries that needed cash to pay their armies...

But I think you've researched this quite deeply already, so it will be interesting to hear your findings and thoughts.

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 Posted 12/04/2018  10:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@aym, thanks for making me smarter!
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Austria
2083 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2018  03:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I think I might have found a match for your coin. One is listed in "Coins of Medieval Europe by Philip Grierson" as a AR Plak of Louis II of Male Ghent, 31mm x 3.59g Gaillard 223.


I became interested in the name Plak. Did a little digging and found in Freys Dictionary of Numismatic names some interesting info. Frey notes the French equivalent was Plaque. Annoyingly Frey doesn't explain why he thought it was important to point out the French Equivalent. When I go to his entry on Plaque he refers the reader back to Plak.

Frey does state that there are a variety of Meanings for plak: " flat surface, a plate, a Shield, a piece of tin etc.

I suspect the coin was called Plak due to the large diameter combined with it thinness( I am assuming it is a typical thin coin, perhaps it even got that name form the mint workers who produced it. I also expect( but would like it confirmed) that the blank had been cut from a sheet that had been produced by hand hammering( using flattening hammers) bar. It is easy to see this( for those who might not know) just examine the coin edge on. If the sheet had been produced by hammering the coin will be of uneven thickness.

Although I have stated what I think Plak might refer to it is just as likely PLak referred to the design on the coin.
Edited by austrokiwi
12/05/2018 03:31 am
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United States
1884 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2018  08:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know that the plaque denomination was used in Lorraine starting at least as early as the 1340s (regency of Marie de Blois for Jean I), and running through the reign of Antoine (1540s).
It, too, is approximately 4 g.
I don't collect royal France, so I don't know if they had this denomination.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Flemish or Brabant tried to do something "bigger and better" at this point in their history to flaunt their wealth.

I guess this does not represent a major advance in minting technology, but I would guess it is the largest diameter coin issued in medieval times up to this point? Unless those innovative Venetians (or Milanese) already had something larger.
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 Posted 12/05/2018  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
At the risk of "scope creep" here is a sampling of this general type in NW Europe late 14th c. for those still following (and a well known U.S. type for size reference).
Upper left: Lorraine (Nancy mint), plaque (= 2 gros) Marie de Blois regency for Duke Jean I. 1346-48.
Upper right: Flanders (Ghent mint), dubbele groot, same as OP's, 1365-67.
Lower left: Brabant (Louvain mint), double gros, Duke Antoine 1406-15.

Edited by tdziemia
12/05/2018 3:19 pm
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 Posted 12/05/2018  3:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
@aym, thanks for making me smarter!


That goes for all of us! We're now better able to attribute this type than CNG or Album, both of whom have sold Mechelen 5th emission coins in recent months without identifying the mint or the date range.
(Elsen, of course, know their stuff, but still call it a botdrager).

And for the OFEY gang, note that a 2d emission coin can be dated within a single year: 1368.
Edited by tdziemia
12/05/2018 4:01 pm
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 Posted 12/05/2018  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And for the OFEY gang, note that a 2d emission coin can be dated within a single year: 1368.


noted!
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Austria
2083 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2019  12:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did a little more digging. Groot appears to relate to Grosso ( the Venitian coin of 2.18g) A gros tournois was just under twice the weight of the venitian coin and this coin was called a double Groot. Its quite an interesting relationship to me. I was so interested I even obtained an example for my self. When I compared it to the other coins in the "family"( that I have)namely, a gigilato, real and pragergroschen the dubble groot stands out in one way it is thinner and of larger diameter. It gives me the impression the Flanders mint wasn't as skilled as the other mints. Alternately they tried to make their coin look bigger than its competitors. You can see the issue with the thinner blank in the photo of my example, it can split on the rim when being struck.


Edited by austrokiwi
05/09/2019 01:15 am
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