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1835 (Head Of 1836) Large Cent With Huge Obverse Cud (N-19?)

 
 
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United States
167 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2019  6:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add pasasap to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I find the Modified Matron Heads to be very difficult to attribute. I think this one could be N-7, 16, or 19; however, all I know for sure is it has the 1836 Head. I think the C in AMERICA is closed, but it is hard to know for sure.

N-19 is an R-5, which is RARE. If this turned out to be an N-19 with a huge CUD, would its rarity number increase? I looked on the Internet and could not find another example. Dan Holes did not have one like this in his collection.

Any thoughts on which variety matches best? How rare is this CUD? Would it be worth more at auction in a Heritage Auction or is this just something rare without much of an extra value?

Bedrock of the Community
United States
15739 Posts
 Posted 02/13/2019  12:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A very interesting coin. It looks like a terminal state of obv 3, but obv 3 isn't paired up with this rev hub in any of it's four pairings. As far as I can tel none of the 1835 varieties come with a cud like that. If it IS a cud then yes it would increase its value. There are specialists in EAC that chase terminal die stages and the competition can sometimes get pretty fierce.
Gary Schmidt
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United States
167 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2019  12:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pasasap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it is N-7 in Terminal Die State. Normally this variety is common (R-1), but with a CUD in this die state, it is more likely R-8 or R-9.
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837 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2019  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Check Jadey's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Jadey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is there an online resource that gives information on these varieties?
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United States
261 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2019  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add collectinsince65 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Largest cud I've seen on a large cent.. very nice
Valued Member
United States
167 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2019  12:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pasasap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jadey, you can use the Dan Holmes Large Cent Collection photos as references. They are found online, but the written description diagnostics are only found in books. You have to buy or borrow from the Library the Large Cent Attribution Guides. To my knowledge, nobody has ever posted a PDF version of any of these guides online. Probably because of Copy Right laws.
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United States
167 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2019  1:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pasasap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I sent an email to John Wright and he does not believe this is a CUD. He showed me a photo of a lamination error where the planchet broke off the obverse and flipped onto the reverse creating what looked like a large CUD. I cannot see where it broke off and flipped over on my coin, but the CUD's border is very sharp, so he is most likely correct it is not an actual CUD. He also pointed out that the rest of the obverse details did not suggest that this was even the terminal die state, so a CUD is highly unlikely. Lamination errors are truly rare and unique, but they are damaged to the planchet and not the die, so they rarely collected. A few collectors out there will want a lamination error to add to their error collection, but serious Large Cent collectors are looking for die states and die damage errors. It is still a cool coin, so I am not too disappointed with the results.
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 Posted 08/21/2019  7:05 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting on John's call on the coin, sure looks like a cud to me, but I'm not sure there is a more advanced specialist in the middle date large cent series than John Wright. So I'd defer to him on it.

P.S. John's Book "The Cent" has been published for all at Newman Numismatic Portal. It's a fantastic book and ever large cent collector should have a hard copy in their library. The online version is okay but the scans leave a lot to be desired in the photo quality. See it here and download the PDF if you want.

https://archive.org/details/centboo...18390000john
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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 Posted 08/21/2019  8:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Id'ing Newcomb Numbers for some of those coins can be VERY difficult, even in the higher grades.
I've got a full date set and still haven't ID'ed all the varieties.
Describe it as if there were no picture.
Picture it as if there were no description.
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United States
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 Posted 08/22/2019  4:21 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I completely agree middle dates are tough to ID and late dates are dang near impossible unless in very high grade many times. I also have the full set of Noyes books on large cents as well as Grellman's late date book and most of the great auction catalogs, which I find help tremendously. Breen, Manley and Cohen, Eckberg books are also all must haves in Half Cents. With any serious early copper collector, books and reference materials are as important if not more than having the coins!
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Bedrock of the Community
United States
15739 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2019  08:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Make that the LATE dates, after the head was modified in 1834, are hard to attribute. Most of the ones from 1816 through 1834 (except the modified heads) are fairly easy.
Gary Schmidt
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United States
7011 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2019  2:14 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I totally agree with you Gary on those late dates! The middle dates aren't too hard, unless they are in the condition I usually end up getting them in, AG to F most with details issues like corrosion. I'd buy better ones if they were cheaper, like 10 years ago or more. sure wish I had stared getting into EAC coinage before I did, I've had some nice coins like a chain sent in VF/XF and a bunch of Half Cents (later dates) in AU/MS but that was when they were cheap and I was dealing coins full time, so they didn't last long, and I never really learned to ID them for varieties, just greysheet pricing and make a few percent on each one. Probably let a few really tough ones slip through my hands due to being ignorant to how much some of the tougher varieties go for now.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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