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What Is Your Tolerance Level Toward 'impaired' - Not 'perfect' Coins ?

 
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
18243 Posts
 Posted 04/13/2019  09:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't mind cleaned coins at all. If the coin is one I need and it has been cleaned, but not harshly, I'll buy it. I can always just put it on a window sill for a while and it should tone down a bit.
just carl
Pillar of the Community
United States
734 Posts
 Posted 04/13/2019  09:45 am  Show Profile   Check Collects82's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do try to avoid them, but every once in a while a particularly scarce coin shows up with an issue at a hugely discounted price and I tell myself that for this low price, it's better than a hole in the collection for a few more years until another one shows up I might have a shot at. The extremity of the damage and resulting eye appeal count a lot still, some coins can be so harshly cleaned they look like funny money to me and I wouldn't touch them regardless. On this one, I think you did fine; if you are happy, that is all that ultimately matters.
My hoard of '82s is up to 159! 218 BC x 1, 118 BC x 3, 18 BC x 1, 82 x 1, 182 x 1, 282 x 2, 582 x 2, 682 x 1, 782 x 2, 882 x 1, 982 x 3, 1182 x 8, 1282 x 2, 1382 x 1, 1482 x 4, 1582 x 12, 1682 x 12, 1782 x 40, 1882 x 41, 1982 x 21
Edited by Collects82
04/13/2019 09:47 am
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1454 Posts
 Posted 04/13/2019  2:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is very interesting to compare the various opinions and positions on this issue.

It does seem as though many of us are tolerant of coins with defects to some degree - i,e as long as the impairment or defect is not too severe ("Looks like the bumper of a 60's Cadillac" - I really like that analogy!), and, the price is also in accordance.

On the other hand, some of us are more severe in our criteria.

There are as many opinions and collecting philosophies as there are collectors.
That is fine - to each his own.








Edited by GERMANICVS
04/13/2019 2:18 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1924 Posts
 Posted 04/13/2019  4:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In rare cases I am a fan of pristine coins.

But all coins were money at one time. I used to fill books with coins I found in circulation, without regard for the fact that they had been handled carelessly by thousands of people, including me, that didn't know they were anything but money. All you have to do is drop a coin or rub it between your fingers and it's "details" grade.

Authenticity first, scarcity second, condition third, cleaning last. For me cleaned coins are often good value when total survival is under 200. Especially with gold, where most collectors are after perfect coins and are willing to pay exorbitantly for them.

edit: I'm more tolerant of cleaning, and even some ex-jewelry, than I am of scratches. The effect of cleaning goes away after a year in your pocket, often with no loss in grade. And jewelry marks can sometimes be non-obtrusive for the budget price. But NOTHING makes scratches look acceptable, especially pin scratch graffiti.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
04/14/2019 12:03 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
6756 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2019  5:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I love coins. I don't consider most of what folks consider cleaning or damage as impairing the coin. It is just part of the life experience of the coin that adds to its character. I imagine that a coin with a little damage is more likely to have seen the battlefield of Gettysburg rather than having spent its life under the lock and key of a miser. Perhaps a coin was cleaned because it was covered in blood after someone dug it out of the pocket of someone who someone who lost a duel. I buy what I like and what I like is likely not what someone else likes. To each his or her own.
Pillar of the Community
United States
936 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2019  5:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llewellin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am very forgiving of damage or holing of scarce and old coins, as I agree that those are just part of the history of many coins, especially when collecting circulated examples. A large part of the allure of coin collecting for me is the history that coins could tell, who held them, what they were used for, etc.

In that same line of reasoning I feel strongly about never buying a cleaned coin; I would not buy one at any price discount unless I had the time and energy to resell for a healthy profit - I do not want one in my collection. The reason being that cleaning a coin is often out of ignorance or a misinformed desire to make a coin look better. This stems from ignorance or stupidity and although some coins can be recovered from an old or light cleaning, I'd rather pass. Every time I see a cleaned coin I just think of how stupid some people are and feel like removing the surface simply erases so much of the coin's history that I value.
Pillar of the Community
United States
601 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2019  09:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add billymac11 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a case by case basis for me. I agree wholeheartedly with everyone's opinion regarding the history of the coin, that they were working coins, and that they passed from hand to hand. They are what they are because of their journey. However, coins with a limited population need to be valued for their survivor status whether cleaned or not. Again, for me, it's case by case for my own collection, with eye appeal a big factor and not looking wholly unnatural with some blast white surface or other "weird" appearance. Holes are a problem for me, too. We all have our arbitrary standards that make us happy or not!
Pillar of the Community
United States
1445 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2019  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Check Andrew99's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm ok with white coins as they can easily be darkened up a bit. I have more of a problem with scratches or graffiti or major dings.
The collection is in your mind. Dispose of your albums and free your mind from the tyranny of holes.
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1454 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2019  2:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This 1838-O half dime shows some light nicks and scratches. Yet, I was happy to add it to my collection of early date Seated coinage, in spite of the defects. The price I paid was, in my opinion, in-line with the overall quality of the coin.

It is a historical and scarce coin, being the first struck by the mint at New Orleans. Most examples are in low grade and many are impaired in some way. A problem-free F12 or better is a scarce find.



Edited by GERMANICVS
04/17/2019 2:16 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
6973 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2019  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Germanicvs, My friend Mark Borckardt, senior cataloger at Heritage and EAC fellow, put on a great talk with slides at the 2016 EAC convention in Irving, TX, I know David Lisot (CoinTelevision) videoed it, but it's not on his youtube channel yet. Keep an eye out it was exactly your initial question, followed like this thread with photos of certain coins, all details of some sort, then a Q&A on why or why not the coin would be a good buy. I really wish I had a copy I could share with you, it was a most delightful talk and quite informative. The bottom line was there are many coins in details holders for what ever reasons, and many of them can be really good and smart purchases. That is of course as long as one isn't trying to have a condition census only set.

There are so many holes to fill in early US sets that details coins might be the only way to go for a complete set.

Anyways a great thread by you as always, I'll keep my eye out for a copy of Mark's talk on video and let you know if/when it's ever posted.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1454 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2019  08:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
westcoin, thank you very much for letting me know. I would dearly like to see how Mark evaluates the relative merits of various coins in spite of being put in 'details' holders.

It is very good to know that a person with his expertise also believes that one must look beyond the mere description on the holder.
A coin does not necessarily have to be 'perfect' in order to provide numismatic and collector satisfaction.

Thank you!






Valued Member
United States
185 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2019  08:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andy Herkimer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it depends on the goal. I have no cleaned coins and have always avoided them. For a set of nice Jefferson's, peace or Morgan's, I would not consider any cleaned coins. The objective is to have nice original surface coins in similar grades.

Now I have started on a 7070 type set, the goal is to have well detailed coins that show the design clearly. So I see no problem including details coins. For me, a type set is about the design and variety of the coins, rather than original surfaces.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4102 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2019  09:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have an 1831 Capped Bust 25 graded by NGC.
Here's the info on the label:

1831 LARGE LETTERS 25
B-7
FINE DETAILS
OBV GRAFFITI, ENV. DAMAGE

The B-7 is the Browning number.
That makes it the 3rd scarcest variety (R-5+) in the Reduced Diameter set (1831-1838)
I bought it raw and had NGC slab it with all of the attributes.
I knew ahead of time it would be a DETAILS coin, but:
-- it's the only one I've ever found
-- it would cost a LOT more if it's surfaces were original.

Whether it's a hole filler or not will depend on the price of one with original surfaces.
Describe it as if there were no picture.
Picture it as if there were no description.
Pillar of the Community
United States
6973 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2019  3:27 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Germanicvs, I was able to find the video in David's catalog. It is # EAC15-002 at his website, under catalog https://www.cointelevision.com/ but it is not viewable for free anywhere, I can see. Next time I run into him, if he has a copy with him, I will purchase a copy. Not holding my breath on the online viewing since this website hasn't been updated since nothing has been added since 2015.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Pillar of the Community
United States
3487 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2019  3:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While I love the look a beautiful coin as much as any collector does, "details" coins have unrivaled appeal for me .... when they possess a conceivably attributable counterstamp, that is! Attributed counterstamps can tell us where a coin's been, who held it, what purpose it served and more.

My avatar, an 1803 large cent, was stamped by Lemuel Pomeroy. Lem was a gunsmith in Pittsfield, Massachusetts. The stamps on this coin match those on the rifles he made for the state militia. The "1826" year stamp indicates one of his contract years. The "JC" stamp is a gun inspector's mark. For collectors of counterstamps, Pomeroy's mark enhances the value of this otherwise VG large cent.

Counterstamps are my favorite "details" coins; this, even if they're also dug holed or otherwise mutilated. I love the stories they tell!

The great majority of counterstamped coins survive in small numbers, being ten specimens or less. They range in value into the hundreds and even thousands of dollars. From my perspective, the strength of the counterstamp is more important than the condition or grade of the host coin. Coins are artifacts that can be appreciated in any number of ways.
Edited by ExoGuy
04/18/2019 4:07 pm
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