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1941 Wheat Penny Possibly On A Foreign Planchette?

 
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 Posted 07/05/2019  12:29 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Khryscoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I've been doing my reach on what metals were being used During this time because when I weighed this 1941 Lincoln Wheat penny it only weighs 2.98g the only reasonable explanation that I can come up with is this...during this time the US mint were producing bronze Panama 1¼ centesimos the weigh 3.01 gram and its an error that's been done before. The coin is not in perfect condition but It's not so damaged or worn down to think that much weight would have worn off of the coin. It's not unreasonable to think that it's color and weight matches best with the foreign bronze Panama 1¼ centesimos. But I definitely need an opinion from a pro that has More experience!



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 Posted 07/05/2019  12:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Did you factor in the mint tolerance of .13 grams +/- ?
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
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 Posted 07/05/2019  1:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Khryscoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes I did which is why I'm Seeking opinion
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 Posted 07/05/2019  1:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Environmental damage plus wear could account for the difference. Possibly a light blank to begin with.
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 Posted 07/05/2019  1:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the Panama 1¼ centesimos (KM# 15, Panama "SCWC" number for the planchet) is 20mm diameter and 1.15 thickness.
the Lincoln cent is 19.1mm diameter and 1.52mm thickness. (KM# 132, US "SCWC" number for the planchet)
Both weigh 3.1g.

Now, the Panama 1¼ centesimos was actually struck on Lincoln cent planchets, absolutely no difference as far as the planchet goes before the strike, the same stock was used for both coins, 3.1g weight, the difference between the two lies in the diameter and thickness due to the collar used.

Now the 1941 wrong planchet example that exists and graded by PCGS was stamped on a 2 1/2 centesimos (KM# 16 Panama) which is a different composition and weight. It was copper nickel.
The 2 1/2 centesimos had 3.3 grams and a diameter of 18 mm, and it was slabbed with incorrect info on the label, it's not a panama 1C planchet

there would be no difference between a Lincoln cent KM# 132 on a KM# 15 planchet, because its the correct planchet for the Lincoln Wheat cent and used by the US mint for both coins when they stuck both of them.

The error coin is on a KM#16 planchet. If you look at "1941 Lincoln Cent Struck on a Panama 1C Planchet -- MS65 PCGS" you will see pictures of the slab. it was labelled wrongly as "stk on Panama 1C plan",
This coin is the copper nickel Panama 2-1/2 Centesimos KM# 16 planchet, clearly evidenced by it's color.

I've gone down this rabbit hole myself and done the research to come to this conclusion already, feel free to look into it yourself independently.
What you have is an underweight Lincoln Wheat cent. Probably at the low end of the tolerance, and then wear I think, for sure it's not a wrong planchet or an off metal.
I also don't have one of them 1941 off metal Lincoln cent on panama planchets.
Edited by Big-Kingdom
07/05/2019 1:37 pm
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 Posted 07/05/2019  2:03 pm  Show Profile   Check Darth Morgan's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Darth Morgan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Big-Kingdom- goodness gracious, your post is most impressive. Thanks for providing a thorough assessment.
My Eisenhower dollar Complete Variety Set, Circulation Strikes and Proof ( PCGS Registry) - https://www.PCGS.com/SetRegistry/do...edset/119137
Darth Morgan - "The Other Ike dollars" Showcase: https://www.PCGS.com/setregistry/showcase/3354
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 Posted 07/05/2019  2:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Khryscoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very informative with out making me feel like I asked a stupid question. Lol Thank you for taking your time to give me a detailed explanation. if only everyone could reply with an educational response instead of a know it all answer.
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 Posted 07/05/2019  2:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We are "all" here to help as much as we can.
Quote:
a know it all answer.
What answer was that?
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
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 Posted 07/05/2019  3:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Khryscoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry if you thought that was directed towards you But it totally wasn't. And I didn't mean it towards anyone specifically it's just sometimes people give you a short condescending reply and I was appreciative of him taking his time to give me a detailed Explanation that's all that was.
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 Posted 07/05/2019  3:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jmkendall to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The problem is that according to the Mint Directors report for 1941 they did not make coins for Panama. They did make bronze coins for the Dominican Republic. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000068053413&view=1up&seq=15

The 1 Centavo is a bronze coin whose weight is 3 grams exactly. https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces6983.html
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 Posted 07/06/2019  12:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to CCF...good question/inquiry..great replies..
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 Posted 07/06/2019  01:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have been a generalist (not a specialist) with numismatics for more decades than I am prepared to admit.
I rely on specialists.
Now, everyone knows why my learning curve is still so steep, thanks to the CCF!
Thanks Big-Kingdom.
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 Posted 07/06/2019  09:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Only reason I know what I do on this particular specific subject is I thought I had one for a time too and researched like a mad man on it.

There is no one complete, accurate list of every coin the u.s. mint produced for other countries. I think it's somewhere between 1200-1500 coin types and dates over 100 years.

There's a book called "Foreign Coins Struck at United States Mints" by Charles G Altz and E. H. Barton, this covers most of 1876-1963.

Then the ANA library has a copy of a report issued by the Department of the Treasury, Bureau of the Mint entitled "Domestic and Foreign Coins Manufactured by Mints of the United States, 1793 - 1980". Again not complete and stops at 1980 and it's all listed by fiscal year, which doesn't always line up with the date on the coins.

So then kind of have to cross reference with "Standard Catalog of World Coins" for KM#'s to figure out the dates and what happened.

In fiscal year 1940 the u.s. mint struck about 1.6 million 1-1/4 centesimos as well as a couple million 2-1/2 centesimos for Panama. These would have been dated 1941 though due to the actual year at the time of minting.

I don't know much of anything else though lol. I just did my homework on this subject because I though I might be rich with a 1941 on a panama 1 cent planchet.
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 Posted 07/06/2019  09:40 am  Show Profile   Check Redifin's eBay Listings Check Redifin's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add Redifin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These kind of ridiculously detailed replies make me feel like I know about as much as someone that just got their first proof set on their 9th birthday.
1. I'm no expert but I'll give my two cents.

2.My favorite coin so far: 1913 Buffalo nickel matte proof type II reverse
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 Posted 07/06/2019  12:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kopper Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Khrys welcome to CCF...great question with a fantastic response meant to educate. Everyone learns.

KK
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 Posted 07/06/2019  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
HI jmkendall!

Panama isn't on the 1941 report because it's on the 1940 report. It was struck in FY1940 with a 1941 date same time they were working on the 1941 cents.

Also, I went through all of this for about 6 months trying to figure it all out, then I found pictures of the PCGS coin slab which made it clear to me it wasn't on a 1C planchet or the 1-1/4 centesimos planchet and was struck on the 2-1/2 centesimos planchet. The coin is the wrong color for bronze.

PCGS just did a sloppy job at labeling the slab as "stk on Panama 1C plan" probably because someone else attributed it and wrote it as struck on cent planchet but didn't specify if it was the 1-1/4 or 2-1/2.

The Dominican Republic 1 Centavo KM# 17 isn't it either, it's also the wrong color compared to the PCGS slabbed specimin.
Also the Dominican Republic 1 Centavo was 3.11g 19mm, again it was struck on the same planchet used for the U.S. 1 cent KM# 132. The difference was also only the collar and the dies. It was the same Lincoln cent planchet stock.

And I think numista is wrong, or rounding on that weight.
NGC as well as other sites has it as 3.11g
https://www.NGCcoin.com/price-guide...duid-1239248
Edited by Big-Kingdom
07/06/2019 1:58 pm
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