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Medieval Italian States Or Savoy?

 
 
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Netherlands
714 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  11:23 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Anyone happens this particulary small coin. It looks Italian (thought Milan first due to the portret) but couldnt find a Milan piece with a flower in the middle of the cross.

Possible Savoy?

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United States
4333 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  6:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob L to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
couldnt find a Milan piece with a flower in the middle of the cross


Not a match, but perhaps similar?

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1265647
https://www.deamoneta.com/auctions/view/578/248


Somewhat similar here too, with full flans - not as crude as your's, though, Vince (could yours be a copy of this?):
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3082667
https://numismaticavaresi.bidinside...e-di-pavia-/


Edited by Bob L
08/14/2019 7:01 pm
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United States
2234 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  8:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As always, great research, Bob!

I am not seeing that Sforza serpent at the top (only a small cross), but a lot of the legends are missing on that coin. Maybe a variant, or as you say, a copy?

I will try to find time for a dive into CNI Lombardy volume.
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United States
12453 Posts
 Posted 08/15/2019  06:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@vince, could you please provide a weight and diameter of this piece? I suspect it might have been cut down.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Netherlands
714 Posts
 Posted 08/15/2019  06:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Spence, Yes I can. It is 0,44 grams and 11 mm Diameter.
It looks indeed there are similarities. Wauw! You mean a copy like an imitation type based on the milan coin?
Like you have with Sterlings Bob , from Britain which are made here in Flandre and such.
Best,
Vincent
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 Posted 08/15/2019  8:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok thanks for the additional information.

The color of your coin is quite dark for it to be silver, but if it is, then based on the diameter and weight being 4 mm and about 0.5 g less than the Pavian Imperiale linked by @bob, I think that he found your coin. However over the years in circulation someone clipped the edge in order to harvest a little bit of the bullion value of the coin. Others of this type available on the interwebs show similar edge shaving.

If your coin is not silver, then I still maintain that @bob got you very close, but just perhaps yours is a smaller denomination and thus made from base metal.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 08/16/2019  09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think your coin is an imperiale of Francesco Sforza, second period (1450-1464), Pavia mint. The CNI reference is Vol.IV, p.507, #22.

The links posted by BobL show imperiales of the first period (1447-50). The obverse legend seen on all of these is (snake) COMES FRANCISCVS or similar

The imperiale of the second period has an obverse legend that starts with a cross. For this specific type, +.FR.DX.MLI.3C. (I think the 3C is an approximation)
The reverse legend would read +.S.SIRVS.PAPIE.
Both sides have a reeded circle (cerchio rigate) around the central design. There are other variants with different punctuation to the legends, and a solid line circle.

Since we can clearly see the cross, dot and what looks like an F on yours, as well as the reeded circle, I think this is the type.

There is a large weight range reported in CNI, from 0.35 to 0.75 g, which is consistent with yours having lost even as much as 25% of its mass to clipping (which is likely to have been the case to remove the legends almost entirely).

Edited by tdziemia
08/16/2019 4:14 pm
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 Posted 08/16/2019  4:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Last, on composition. CNI has Au, Ar and M for the composition of coins made at Pavia during this period. Yours is listed as M which I think is billon.

This quattrino from Ferrara made at the same time (mid-1400s) is made of billon, and is brown in color, more like copper or bronze (portrait of San Maurelio is similar too ... I guess those sainted bishops all looked alike

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