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Morgan Dollar Proof Details? Rim Looks Square

 
 
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 Posted 08/17/2019  09:19 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Flyingfire00 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Would this happen to be what a proof looks like?



Edited by Flyingfire00
08/17/2019 09:22 am
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 Posted 08/17/2019  09:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
first, in order to be PL both sides need to exhibit it. second, its difficult to determine PL without sharper photos and it would help to be set on edge on some type of newsprint to determine depth. it looks like a nice coin, see If you can post both sides in a little better light and at least one as stated on its edge on newsprint. based on what I'm seeing here it could be in the MS65 range
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 Posted 08/17/2019  09:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Do you mean Proof or Proof-like?
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 Posted 08/17/2019  09:32 am  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think he means proof, but it's a business strike, so it's proof-like.
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 Posted 08/17/2019  09:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We would need reverse photos to determine a grade range. If the reverse is similar to the obverse it would make PL but not DMPL. Good strike but not a proof.
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 Posted 08/17/2019  3:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fioti to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's a beautiful PL.
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 Posted 08/17/2019  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Flyingfire00 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The rims look square to me. I don't have other pictures. Posting for a friend.
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 Posted 08/17/2019  5:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can you tell us what mint the coin came from ?
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 Posted 08/17/2019  7:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like New Orleans to me
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 Posted 08/18/2019  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Flyingfire00 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It was just a question about the rims. My goodness.
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 Posted 08/18/2019  8:15 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Flyingfire00, I think you have what is known as a "prooflike" Morgan dollar there.

They are so named because they resemble Proof strikes, but they were minted as business strikes.

When new dies were being put into service, their surfaces were usually polished ("basined"), free of cracks/damage, and not yet scratched, pitted, or worn due to striking coins.
Sometimes the employees at the various Mints would even give the dies a bit of extra "love" and do an almost Proof-level of polishing and cleaning.

But, unlike Proof issues, they were only struck once before the next planchet in line came into place. The first number of coins struck with those beautiful dies often had cameo contrast and reflective, mirror-like surfaces. As each coin was struck thereafter, the surfaces got a little bit duller and a little bit more worn, until the dies reached the end of their life, when they would sometimes have cracks, chips, heavy wear, repaired cracks and clash marks, etc -- the coins from those dies reflecting their condition.

At various times and Mints, for various reasons (ranging from working conditions, to apathy, to dissatisfaction, or whatever) the Mint employees would do exactly the opposite and pay absolutely no attention to the dies, resulting in coins with terrible strikes, misalignment, extensive clashing, dull surfaces, and so on.

The Proof Morgans were a bit different. They were struck only at Philadelphia (allegedly*) and unlike Prooflike and Deep Mirror Prooflike business strikes they did in fact have a more squared-off rim and highly reflective surfaces but did not (usually) have noticeable cameo contrast. In addition, both the way Proofs were handled after striking and the attitudes of the Mint, the Treasury, and collectors regarding cleaning coins was much different than it is today -- unsold Proof coins might occasionally be wiped or polished by employees to keep them looking shiny, or stored in conditions where they developed deep toning, or allowed to contact other coins and acquire scratches and nicks.

Without seeing the reverse, the obverse of your coin displays all of the characteristics of a very early die state business strike -- normal rims, decent strike, reflective fields with some cameo contrast -- but does not have the razor-sharp strike or well-defined squared-off rims of a Proof Morgan. If you look at the denticles on your coin, you will notice that they are flat with regard to the rim; on Proof strikes, the rim is usually slightly but noticeably above the denticles, resulting in a visible circumferential "line" between the rim and the bases of the denticles. In addition, many of the Proof Morgans have distinct die markers and areas of overpolishing that are not present in these photos.

As I mentioned, many genuine 1883 Proof strikes show signs of cleaning, wipes, or mishandling, not maliciously, but due to the prevalent attitude of those parties involved. A little over 1,000 (!) 1883-dated Proof Morgan dollars were struck. The issues of the 1883 branch mints (O, CC in particular) are often found with Prooflike strikes and mirrored fields with some cameo contrast, and they are a nice (and much more affordable) way to get the look of a Proof Morgan without spending 10 times the money.

If you can obtain photos of the reverse, please post them here, or feel free to ask if you have further questions. I am attaching a photo (from PCGS) showing the rim detail of a Proof 1883 Morgan.
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 Posted 08/23/2019  2:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Flyingfire00 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@paralyse. Thank you. The picture you provided was helpful. What about these pictures?


Edited by Flyingfire00
08/23/2019 2:59 pm
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 Posted 08/27/2019  12:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
paralyse nailed it.
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