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1988 Off Center Quarter Struck With Inverted Dies? Collar Clash?

 
 
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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 10/20/2019  2:47 pm Show Profile   Check Pete2226's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
What am I missing?
During this time period, the Obverse was commonly the hammer die. However this statement: "Most off-center strikes and some uncentered broadstrikes show a collar scar on the face struck by the anvil die." http://www.error-ref.com/inverted-d...stallation/) seemed to me to suggest that for this coin the Obverse Die was the anvil die. This would not be expected in 1988 and would indicate an inverted die installation. What am I missing?
As I understand it the Mint began working with inverted die installation in 1992 and the Schuler Press (horizontal striking) in 2002. Since this coin predates those events is the reason I am wondering if I am actually interpreting what I see correctly i.e. the Obverse die is the anvil die. What am I missing?
Another possibility, of course, is a collar clash. What I do not understand about this possibility is how a collar clash can show on an unstruck portion of a planchet since the clash is on the die itself? (From left of IGWT to below the Date).













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 Posted 10/20/2019  3:07 pm  Show Profile   Check Yokozuna's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Yokozuna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Of the off center and collar clashed coins I've seen, the obverse die looks to be the hammer die. I think you're seeing collar clash on your coin. If the hammer die is out of alignment, it can strike the edge of the collar, which transfers the reeded edge to the obverse die. When the out-of-collar planchet is then struck by the clashed hammer die, It transfers the clashed image of the reeding to the flat, unstruck area of the off center coin.

I think I made that about as clear as mud. Let's see what everyone else has to say.



Edit: Trying to make things clearer... but failing.
"Shine, shine, a Roosevelt dime
All the way to Baltimore and running out of time" - Tom Waits 'Clap Hands'

Edited by Yokozuna
10/20/2019 3:11 pm
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 10/20/2019  3:19 pm  Show Profile   Check Pete2226's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you. That is precisely what I do not understand! If the flat unstruck area is unstruck, how can the die with a clash strike it?
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 Posted 10/20/2019  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Check Yokozuna's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Yokozuna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okay... As I understand it, and I could be totally wrong, the reeding you see on the obverse of the coin is from the clashed obverse die. The reeding has accidentally become just another part of the design. The collar's reeded area didn't make any contact with your coin.

Is that right? I'm gonna bang my head a few more times.

Here's one of my off center collar clashed coins. It's not as nice of a collar clash as yours, but it shows basically the same thing. I think.

Click on the picture for a larger image.
"Shine, shine, a Roosevelt dime
All the way to Baltimore and running out of time" - Tom Waits 'Clap Hands'

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 Posted 10/20/2019  3:44 pm  Show Profile   Check Pete2226's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It seems to me that a collar clash position on the die will be congruent with the outer circumference of the die or inside it and thus will show on The struck planchet adjacent to the edge of the design/proto rim or inside that area. For your coin it is adjacent. It is also for mine but only so far. From IGWT around to the date it is on the unstruck portion.
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 Posted 10/20/2019  3:48 pm  Show Profile   Check Yokozuna's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Yokozuna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The collar clashed die is making contact with the planchet and it's causing the metal to flow away from the center of the strike with nothing limiting it's expansion. The further out from the center, the more distortion of the image you'll get. The clashed image of the reeding on the obverse die would be the farthest from the center, so it would show the most metal flow and therefore the most distortion.

Great. Now I'm so confused that I don't remember where I live.
"Shine, shine, a Roosevelt dime
All the way to Baltimore and running out of time" - Tom Waits 'Clap Hands'

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 Posted 10/20/2019  3:57 pm  Show Profile   Check Pete2226's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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 Posted 10/20/2019  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There's a bit about cupping in that article. Your's seems to have some toward the obverse? I also think that the mark above "Of am" on the reverse is a collar scar.
In an off-center strike it is the planchet that is misaligned (misfed) so that portion would have been sitting on the collar. Which could explain the clash.
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 Posted 10/21/2019  10:53 am  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice error coin Pete2226!
More information about Die Deterioration? http://goccf.com/t/317950
Retired U.S. Mint Coin Die Set information. http://goccf.com/t/302961
Machine Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/332421
Die states progression on coins. Scroll down, so you can see the different die state progressions. http://goccf.com/t/325638
Die Deterioration Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/336470
Split Plate Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/357614
2000 P LMC With Retained Struck Through error. http://goccf.com/t/357080
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 Posted 10/21/2019  1:28 pm  Show Profile   Check Pete2226's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since the clash is a feature on the die, it seems to me that it will show on the planchet in whatever portion of the planchet the die strikes - which it does on this coin from L to just before IGWT. Since the die did not strike the portion of the planchet from outside of IGWT around to the date, how can the clash show in that area? It seems especially clear that below the 88 the clash is outside the design rim itself. What am I missing?


This may be related to a "slide zone", but I really do not see evidence of a "Slide", except perhaps on a few of the reed marks.
http://www.error-ref.com/slide-zone...st-elements/ br /
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 Posted 10/21/2019  2:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Note the lower images. This is what the die looks like after a collar clash:

So if the collar broke, the next few coins could have altered the edge of the die, leaving that affect on the off center strikes.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 10/21/2019  2:26 pm  Show Profile   Check Pete2226's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Coop!!

This just in:

Mike Diamond: "the irregularities seen on the 1988 quarter appear at the edge of the field. Here the damaged die sunk into the planchet while, at the same time, the planchet expanded radially, dragging the coin metal across the "teeth" that were gouged into the die neck."
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 Posted 10/21/2019  8:24 pm  Show Profile   Check Yokozuna's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Yokozuna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yea! I can sleep now.
"Shine, shine, a Roosevelt dime
All the way to Baltimore and running out of time" - Tom Waits 'Clap Hands'

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