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Italian Papal Coin But Which

 
 
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Pillar of the Community
Netherlands
721 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2019  02:22 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi All,

IN my collection I have an Quart gross from some Urban. But I can't find an exact match. Below the mitre normal it is a V but on my example there is a shield with dots. Also the lyrics look different then the ones I can find.
Similair examples are: Urbano V (Guillame de Grimoard), 1362-1370
Quarto di Grosso (sesino)



Pillar of the Community
United States
2673 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2019  07:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am having difficulty seeing the legends/lyrics. If you can tell what you have been able to see, I can take a look in CNI after work today and see if I can find a match.
Pillar of the Community
Netherlands
721 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2019  11:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Obvsere: Mitre with ? BRT IN

reverse with P P and shield with 4 dots in it lyrics: :+: SA (.... PAULVS?)

Could it be savoy?
Pillar of the Community
United States
2673 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2019  10:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In first photo, I think I see the keys in the NE and SW quadrants of the cross, and I agree the legend is either SANCTVS PAVLVS, but maybe equally SANCTVS PETRVS.
Saint Paul has fewer places associated with him. Saint Peter has very many places ... any episcopal city, including many in the Germanic world

IN second photo, if I understand correctly, you see the mitre, and below it letters P ? P. Maybe the impression of cross from the other side is showing through. ANd lettering starting with B at 6:00.

Weekend project

Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
2859 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2019  02:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sanctus Petrus it is indeed, and there's an almost exact match on Numista.

...an almost exact match; the obverse legend is way off. It should be VRBANVS QVINTVS, but I'm reading SART (I'm fairly confident about the T, less so about the other letters).
Edited by january1may
11/14/2019 02:23 am
Pillar of the Community
Netherlands
721 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2019  11:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is one of the only varieties I found till now.
Avignone. Gregorio XI (Pierre Roger de Beaufort), 1370-1378. Quarto di grosso o sesino, MI 1,25 g. Chiavette decussate GREGORVS VNDEC. Rv. + SANCTVS chiavette decussate PETRVS Croce patente con mitrie e chiavi decussate nei quarti. PdA 4180. Muntoni 15. Berman 214.
Rarissimo.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2673 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2019  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also a similar coin of one of the many Popes Benedict on Nunmista. Again, the legend obv does not appear to match.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces92356.html
Pillar of the Community
Netherlands
721 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2019  12:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
hard one to determine... this one
As for avignon I can't find an match
Pillar of the Community
United States
2673 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2019  2:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This type was also issued under Comtat Venaissin, Martin V, but again the legend doesn't match. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Comtat-Ven...AOSwq19XBlS1

The list of popes and their latin names as they might appear:
Urban V - VRBANVS QVINTVS (known example from Numista))
Gregory XI - GREGORIVS UNDECIMVS (known example from vince77)
Clement VII - CLEMENS SEPTINVS or VII ?
Benedict XIII - BENEDITVS PP XIII (known example from Numista)
Martin V - MARTINVS PP V (known example from eBay)

I checked CNI for whether this type was issued in Rome, and it was not. I did not check any of the other papal states.

Edit: the more I look, I wonder if this could be a coin of Clement? Could the letters from 5:30 to 11:00 be SEPTIN?S
Does anyone have a (French) catalog to indicate whether this antipope (1378-94) issued coins?
Edited by tdziemia
11/17/2019 3:58 pm
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
2859 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2019  12:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Edit: the more I look, I wonder if this could be a coin of Clement? Could the letters from 5:30 to 11:00 be SEPTIN?S
...Huh, I agree with you as well. I really should have realized that the SART was actually SEPT before.
(For the record, I'm reading SEPTIM?S or similar.)

Apparently Clement VII did issue this denomination - here's an example - and the symbol between the two P letters under the mitre seems to be about right as well (there's a lot of versions of that symbol apparently), so we can probably consider this attributed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2673 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2019  2:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Nice, @j1m! Glad there are contributors here with better searching skills than mine.
Edited by tdziemia
11/18/2019 2:12 pm
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
2859 Posts
 Posted 11/18/2019  4:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Nice, @j1m! Glad there are contributors here with better searching skills than mine.
Actually, my searching skills kind of sucked - I considered Clement VII, but for a while I couldn't find any examples of this denomination for him, just the denaro and the grosso.

(I eventually found the linked example after deciding to search for relevant French words instead of Italian ones.)
Pillar of the Community
Netherlands
721 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2019  08:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vince1977 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes it is avignon. As I knew that already. But it is the varity I can't find. If you look at any Avignon type which are sold you can't find an match with points in the shield. You can see clearly none at the ones in mcsearch for example. And on mine you can see really got 3 points the bottom one is probably gone by wear. So it should have 4.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2673 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2019  09:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the similarity in lettering on the side with the mitre makes it likely at least that Clement VII is the correct pope. If there are several varieties for this type, I can't help.

Edited by tdziemia
11/27/2019 09:31 am
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