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1891 Ll Ld Looking For Grade Opinions

 
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Canada
1435 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2019  2:44 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Purchased this about a year ago but needed time on the table to touch lots

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 Posted 12/15/2019  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not the best pics, but I'll say VF-30.
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Canada
169 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2019  6:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numis-Northerner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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Canada
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 Posted 12/15/2019  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add johnnysprawl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll say VF-30 as well
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 Posted 12/15/2019  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Could make XF40, but still a solid 30+. A great loking coin for a pretty scarce variety ... full serif N in Regina. Trends better than $200
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Canada
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 Posted 12/15/2019  10:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After studying 1888 large cent I would suggest all the obverse 2 die used in 1891 are die that were left over from 1888.
Without studying the 1891 obverse 2 dies I'm not certain just how many there are but I suspect they were all from 1888.
Finding his obverse on the 1888 is much more difficult.

Cheers, Bill
Edited by Hounddog Bill
12/15/2019 11:15 pm
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 Posted 12/16/2019  07:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How many of the 1888 Obv 2's have you found with the full (repaired) serif on the N in Regina? I know that I sent you my 1888's for a look-see and I know that I have at least 1. I have none of the 1891's that way.
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Canada
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 Posted 12/16/2019  11:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okie I'm pretty sure there was never a repair to the "N" in REGINA.
When they started minting 1888 cents there were no missing serifs on any of the obverse legend.
The first serif to chip off was the "D" in DEI which was repaired on several dies until they just gave up on repairing it.
The majority of 1888's have this serif missing on the "D" in DEI.
The next serif to chip off was the top serif on the "D" in Canada which is the same as the coin papeldog has shown above.
There was only one such die used in 1888 and any others that were left over were then used in 1891.
it was only in latter part of1888 that the serif on the "N" in REGINA broke off.
I've not studied the 1891 obverse 2's but have noticed they can be found with three configurations.
1. One with just the missing serif on the "D" in DEI.
2. The second one is the coin pictured above with missing serif on both the "D" in DEI and the "D" in Canada.
3. Lastly there's one with three missing serif's the two as in the second one and by this time the bottom stand on the "N" in REGINA broke off.
These three configurations of missing serif's can also be found on 1888 cents which Is one of the reasons I believe the ones from 1891 are carried over from 1888.
My computer is in being repaired at the moment but when It's returned I'll be able to post picture showing this progression.

Cheers, Bill
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 Posted 12/16/2019  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hounddog .... I'm just putting down (the repaired N in Regina) from Robs entry on p328 of the 2011 Charlton, with the Vicky varieties. I haven't studied either date, but here is what We had for the Charlton variety guide: "All of the obverse OC-2 dies used for the 1891 cents had a broken botttom left serif on the "N" in Regina. On this single working die, the engravers repunched the letter to give it a full serif." You've studied the 1888's so maybe what you say dovetails onto what Rob put down.
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Canada
37 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2019  3:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sammeli to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hound dog. Okie coiner is correct the 1888 came with broken serif and a repaired n Regina Also the 1892 ov2 has a broken serifs didn't a repaired n in Regina I have both kinds of 1888 and 1892. But I didn't know about the d's. I also have 2 of the 1891 repaired n's
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 Posted 12/16/2019  3:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okie, here is a obverse found on a 1888 that is the same as paeldog's coin.
If Rob is saying there's only one in 1891 then that would mean there were only two dies made before the "N" in REGINA failed.
One was used in 1888 and the other carried over and used 1891 as Rob has reported.
Without studying the 1888's It's possible Rob was unaware of this matching die from 1888.
I do believe he has the order they were produced reversed.

Cheers, Bill
[
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United States
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 Posted 12/17/2019  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 1888 with the broken serif was described in Dies & Diadems, pages 80 and 81, in 2009, along with the various other damage to the punch that happened to the obverse C2 punch.

The 1891 with the full serif was also in D&D. Based on the coins I had at the time, I described it as having a re-punched in the die serif. I still think it was re-punched, but acknowledge that it may have come from a an older punch. It is difficult to say for certain.

Similar to what happened in many other Victorian years, I think some of the obverse C2 dies were left over from previous years and used up in 1891 and 1892. I published that opinion in my 2012 catalog of the 1890 & 1892 dies. Given the numbers of dies sunk in 1891, and the numbers used, I don't think all of the C2 dies used in 1891 were leftover from before.

The 1892 C2 full serif cents were described briefly in D&D and in more detail in my 2012 die catalog. I do very much think this die was left over from 1888.

D & D was a book written about the entire large cent series, and it was based on hundreds of coins. That was a very good start, but it was not based upon full die studies needed to fully understand each date. I very much expected others would conduct those full die studies and, based on those complete die studies, D & D would eventually need a bit of tweaking. In fact, I tweaked the 1890 and 1892 discussion when I published those die catalogs.

From the preface of D & D, written in 2007; "I should point out that die research is always limited by the coins available to examine and by no means have I seen all of the Victorian cents now existing. I readily acknowledge that coins may appear that cause us to add to, or modify, the matrix-punch-die hierarchy presented in this book"
Edited by bosox
12/17/2019 4:19 pm
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 Posted 12/17/2019  3:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, thanks, Rob.

It hurts my head to even think about the amount of research and study that it took to put out your 4+ books. I'm glad that I was able to assist even a little to help you with your efforts. I just never thought about going back and reading D&D although, when I did, I saw that I had lots of handwritten notes on many of the pages of the soft-cover draft. Thanks for everything that you've done to help Canadian Numismatics.
Edited by okiecoiner
12/17/2019 5:15 pm
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United States
853 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2019  5:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks. I expect the specimen book to be out in a few months. The manuscript is complete and now just working through the publishing/printing issues. I think it will have interest to any large cent collector, whether you collect or care about specimens or not.
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Canada
1435 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2019  7:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow: lots of info and knowledge on this post for 1888 and 1891 LL LD obverse 2.

I do find this 1891 LL LD with the intact N in Regina and the 1888 with the broken N in Regina a little harder to find for those years.

Special thanks to Rob, Bill + Bill for all your interests and knowledge in researching these years its a good refresher to read of the books.

Can hardly wait for your new book Rob please e-mail when ready for orders.
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United States
853 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2019  7:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will not be selling it. I have donated the book (and all proceeds) to the RCNA to sell.
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