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Authentic 1773 8 Reales? 6.5 Inches Under!!

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New Member
United States
11 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2020  9:48 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Kojack to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello all!! First off. Much love to all of you and I'm proud to be a member of this group!! I'm what some call a "treasure hunter" (metal detectorist#129320;) and on my first out of town dig I got a solid 89 signal, high conductor and I pulled this baby out the soil, 6.5in down!! Ive researched as much as I possibly can and I'm leaning towards authentic but I need someone that knows about these to assist me before I wet my.britches #129315;#129315;#129315; Its weighing in at 26.872g on a professional coin scale and 26.8 on my little cheapo scale. The edges look INSANE! NEVER seen anything like it but neither have I ever seen a reale ?!?!

Pics of everything below that I felt would be useful.




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Canada
3152 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2020  03:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't seen anything obviously wrong with it.
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United States
2032 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2020  09:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The flipped FM mintmark is unusual, but according to Numista they exist. I don't know if that makes this rare. You might want to post in foreign coins so Swamper Bob can have a look at it.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
01/10/2020 09:12 am
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United States
11 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2020  10:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kojack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Really?!?! So this maybe not only real but may even be a variety/type? OMG :-0 So you suggest posting in foreign?
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2032 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2020  2:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
jbuck, can you move this? It needs World Coin experts.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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2963 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2020  3:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NGC lists this variety as KM-106.1, and the normal orientation of the mint mark and initials as KM106.2 https://www.NGCcoin.com/price-guide...talogNumber=

The census report shows 16 of KM-106.1 graded, and 23 of KM-106.2, suggesting the inverted variety is not terribly scare compared to the normal one.
Edited by tdziemia
01/11/2020 06:46 am
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 Posted 01/10/2020  3:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
jbuck, can you move this? It needs World Coin experts.
Done.
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1018 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2020  10:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is in ridiculously good shape for a ground find. It appears to have normal circulation wear and I can't see any environmental damage exhibited by coins that have been in the ground for any significant length of time.

That aside, these coins have been counterfeited by modern forgers so authentication is necessary and can be somewhat difficult.

I don't see any obvious design anomalies on obverse or reverse with the exception of the scratch above the FM on the reverse that somehow does not affect the crown design that it seems to cross through. tdziemia has correctly identified the design as one of the two varieties for this year.

The edge photos do not show any sections where the design elements overlap. A genuine issue was made on an edging mill that would leave two small sections of overlap at directly opposite sides of the coin.

The genuine coin would be roughly 90% silver and 10% copper. It would help if you can determine the alloy makeup with a specific gravity measurement or some kind of non-destructive test that a jeweler might be able to do for you.

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4912 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2020  12:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I concur entirely with jgenn.

The coin looks genuine, but without scientific verification (density or alloy by XRF) I would be VERY suspicious.

You do not explain the location of the burial or the soil type. It is extremely odd to find a silver coin without some discoloration of the surfaces. Back a few decades ago I undertook an experiment on discoloration in a cemetery. I figured the coins would be safe there from metal detectors. I placed US quarters at several family markers under 2 - 6 inches of loam. I removed the silver coins when we moved south and NONE looked this nice. The longest burial period was about 10 years. The Cu-Ni coins actually darkened more. Cleaning was not very successful with acetone.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 01/11/2020  06:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Has it been cleaned to some extent? (I realize that would not help with outright corrosion that might be expected after decades or centuries).
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 Posted 01/14/2020  12:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kojack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry about the longer than usual response time guys! I Work 12 hour shifts. SO, to answer all the questions that I seen, I know I'm a newb to this stuff but I ABSOLUTELY without a doubt dug this specimen out of thr ground. The soil was more of a red/brownish clay type soil with ALOT of rocks, also a little wet and as a matter of fact the next time I go out again to this location ill ground balance, gain a Fe03 soil reading and ground blnc ID # off my detector and reply with that info. ALSO, YES. This coin has been soaked in hot water and dish soap several times and ive even used a little baking soda and hot water on a sheet of aluminum however I DID NOT scrub the baking soda into the coin, rather I let it soak and thrn put it through my ultra sonic , protected by a small holder so it wouldnt vibrate on the floor of the ultra sonic. If you look closely on front and back ull notice almost a dark black staining that streaks through some of the lettering even that I couldnt clean up, there was more of that on the coin but most came off after the first bkSD soak. Its also undergone a professional cleaning by a good friend of mine that I usually give my collection coins too before I send them off to get graded or before I sell. I will talk with him about it and try to get some more information HOWEVER, I wish I would have taken a picture right as it come out the ground because it looked NOTHING like it does now .
Edited by Kojack
01/14/2020 1:02 pm
New Member
United States
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 Posted 01/14/2020  12:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kojack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jgenn, how does this specific gravity test work? Any links you could provide that may be able to assist me that would be newb friendly lol ? Oh and not sure if it helps but when I pulled this coin out of the ground it was extremely close to a few other items IE buckle, an old snap closure purse (maybe from the 80s) and an old beaver tail.
Edited by Kojack
01/14/2020 12:51 pm
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 Posted 01/14/2020  1:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kojack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob, this isn't a picture of the coin right as it came out of the ground. This is about 2 weeks give or take since myself and a good friend of mine (avid coin collector) cleaned it up. I am kicking myself for not taking a photo as it was pulled out thr ground. It was MUCH Darker and alot more of the black stainlike streaks some of which I was able.to lighten up.using some aluminum and baking soda but it still had alot left to go once I passed it on to my buddy. Hes no renown coin expert or nothing but hes cleaned up alot of my old standing libertys and constitutional for me in the past so I had his help. To these pics have been taken the day I got it back from him as you can see the paper towels I'm using to touch it with to take the side photos. Let me check the sides again because I only rotated it just enough to get a good focus on the neat design. Will post up in a sec.
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 Posted 01/14/2020  6:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joecoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've pulled 150 year old silver out of the ground that looks this good. I've also pulled 55 year old silver that looked terrible.

Depends so much on ground mineralization and saturation.
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 Posted 01/14/2020  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
joecoin You raise the point I was asking about. The acidity of the soil, moisture level and climate all effect the way a coin tones when buried. In the past, most of the coins dug up came with photos of the area of burial, the location and soli photos, so that "base line conditions" can be assessed. It also helps to know of any other metal objects recovered in the immediate vicinity. A coin recovered from a flood prone location in the North East US buried in the topsoil layer will look much different than a coin recovered from a hilltop burial in the South western desert. I have worked with many dump recoveries where the context can accurately date the time of burial.

Kojack You indicate a wet a red/brownish clay type soil with ALOT of rocks. The overall geographic location is not given, but I would expect that the soil was slightly reactive in nature and that long term burial would likely cause leaching of copper at the surface. So XRF testing might show silver enrichment. The depth of 6 inches or so is near the boundary between loamy soils and more sterile sub-soils. The higher in the loam the burial takes place the higher the reaction rate and the more likely corrosion will take place in a century.

The fact that the developed patina has been removed makes it more difficult to estimate the date of the burial. So we are left with scientific tests of authenticity.

Specific gravity testing is simple. The coin is first weighed in air suspended from a thin string. Then the coin is weighed suspended in water. (Room temperature distilled water that has cooled after boiling is best.)

The coin will appear to have lost a small amount of weight. The weight loss is equal to the water displaced by the coin (buoyancy). The difference in the 2 weights weight expressed in grams is equal to the volume of the coin expressed in cubic centimeters. (That is Archimedes principle.)

To get the density you simply divide the weight of the coin in air by the volume. A scale that is accurate to 1/100 gram is essential for a minimal test. A 1/1000th gram analytical scale is better. The volume of an MS 8 reales is theoretically 2.625 cubic centimeters at the mid range of tolerance. The correct density of an 8R is 10.31.

Just make sure there are NO gas bubbles attached to the coin surface.

The concern I see in this case is a result of having no clues as to how did the coin got there? Many if not most of coins that were discarded intentionally are counterfeit. Counterfeits unless they contained some silver were typically destroyed and/or thrown away. Dump sites are common locations for such finds. Knowing that it came from a dump site would provide at least a clue to the why question.

Of less concern are "coins" discovered in known recovery areas such as wreck sites or even old habitation sites where active exploration is ongoing. Counterfeits may be discovered on these sites but they represent valuable data when the total circulating population of the site becomes known.

Isolated single coins with no context can be anything. Discarded tourist copies are VERY common in such situations.
Many people are defrauded at flea markets or from other questionable sources and simply discard the items as junk in places where they might fool others.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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United States
11 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2020  01:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kojack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob Thank you soo much for such a complete and in depth response, you just answered some of my curiosity's as well as main questions all in one reply post and that tells me that your either an expert or a very very knowledgeable niche collector and either or, I tip my hat off to you good sir!

Following up on the location, it was on Private property as it is one of my most recent permissions. As far as location is concerned, I will tell you that its in Southwest Georgia, I asked this permission specifically based on the fact that my research indicated that the acreage was once occupied by a VERY old merchant shop (Based on Historic Aerials and research ive dome about the area and its history.. I have also found a few other items on the following visit (capped bust dime, 1 merc, an old snap closure change purse and a couple of buckles)

I am crossing my fingers on this one because I cannot wait to see what kind of grade I may receive from PCGS OR NGC depending on which I choose. I WILL proceed with gathering the material's very soon to do a Specific gravity measurement on it however. I Do know one thing for sure, fake or real, its definitely silver. I will also provide to you a few new photos that I took recently of the entirety of whats not shown in my recent pics of the side to see about this "overlap".

Also, what could one expect to get from this piece if authenticated? I'm no grader but if I were, id give this piece at LEAST a VG at minimum..

Once again, Thank you for such a great reply. As well as many thanks to those of you whom also responded. You are all appreciated and I'm thinking about becoming a supporter!
Edited by Kojack
01/15/2020 12:35 pm
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