Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

1858 20c Canada/'new Brunswick Mule

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Valued Member
Canada
77 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2020  09:51 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
There is mule version of the 1858 Province of Canada 20c that has the obverse of the intended coin (>700,000 minted) and the reverse of the 1862/4 New Brunswick 20 cent. It's a very interesting little freak of a coin. I've seen a few of them appear on eBay (Proof Positive has one there now for $15,000) and at various auctions. They generally command very high prices but I have no idea whether they're actually worth it in terms of scarcity. They tend to be high grade because I think they were produced exclusively as specimen coins and not ever circulated.

Does anyone know how many of them were minted? Is that number known?
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Canada
7830 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2020  6:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is not a mule at all.
It's a trial piece.
The obverse was adopted by The Province Of Canada.
The reverse was rejected by The Province of Canada and subsequently adopted by The Province of New Brunswick.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Pillar of the Community
Canada
8063 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2020  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


That's the reason they are all high grade.
They never went into circulation.
Bowman has it listed as trial piece B-6 if
you are looking for a reference.
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16634 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2020  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am guessing:-
The reason for the high price is that only a few of them survived melting.

The few that did survive, were never intended to be circulated.
Perhaps the World's first NCLT!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Found on Google Images
'1858 Victoria pattern 20 Cents'
Edited by sel_69l
02/14/2020 7:38 pm
Valued Member
Canada
77 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2020  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ha - so it was just a bunch of design guys in England trying to decide what the various parts of Canada's coins would look like!
Valued Member
United States
277 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2020  12:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JHax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
DBM, you seem really certain this coin is a trial piece using the "rejected" reverse later used for New Brunswick. Do you have clear evidence for this?
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Canada
7830 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2020  12:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's Bowman #B6
Charlton PC4
New Brunswick did not adopt the dollar until 1860.




"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1427 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2020  05:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I own one of these beauties.

They're extremely rare. I bought mine on Heritage Auctions years back.



Valued Member
United States
277 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2020  10:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JHax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I'm aware of the catalog listings. Fred Bowman and I were friends -- I used to visit him and his wife in Montreal. But Royal Mint 19th century specimens are not always what they seem. How about the 1875 New Brunswick 5c? Is its existence then to be taken as evidence for a proposed 1875 coinage for New Brunswick? So again I ask does anybody know of solid proof that B6/PC-4 employs a Province of Canada pattern reverse?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1427 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2020  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So what you're saying is...there's a chance it's a MULE?

Pillar of the Community
Canada
4697 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2020  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Check thedollarman's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add thedollarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This was part of the description for C-V's coin when it was sold on Heritage..

"As mentioned in the Norweb catalog, possibly created as a "mint sport" by Charles W. Fremantle who was deputy master of The Royal Mint from 1868-1894 and is known to have created similar strikings for other countries"

I'm not sure how much I trust this theory though, as it would have been much more convenient to use an out of service 1862 NB specimen die than it would have been to hub an entirely new die with a new date and then give it a specimen finish. It reminds me of the 1864 NFLD pattern cents with a NB/NS obverse legend, which appear to be accepted as legitimate patterns..

I am much more useful with the KG-VI series than I am with Victoria though.
feel free to call me Will. I'm a 19 year old collector from the GTA area of Ontario.

my PMs are always open, whether you have a question or simply wish to talk.
Edited by thedollarman
02/16/2020 4:29 pm
Valued Member
Canada
77 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2020  5:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@canadian-varieties - wow - jealous!
Valued Member
United States
277 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2020  9:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JHax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm in the process of writing a paper on the "odd" B.N.A. specimens struck during Fremantle's tenure, so I'll confine myself here to the coin at hand, the Prov. of Canada/N.B. mule 20c, and give fewer details here than will be in the paper.

Without any other information this coin has the potential of being entirely believable as a pattern, the reverse being rejected in 1857/8 and later finding use for New Brunswick. But suspicion doesn't constitute fact. The surviving records seem to tell the real story. Forty years ago I read Leonard Wyon's diary (in the British Library). He discussed in some detail his work on the master tools for both the coins and medals he produced. When there were patterns, he mentioned it and in cases like the Nova Scotia mayflower coinage of 1856 the tools for both the patterns and adopted designs were included in The Royal Mint die accounts. In the Province of Canada accounts there is only one 20c reverse matrix and punch, what must be the adopted designs. Even if someone else had engraved a pattern 20c reverse, it would have been in the die accounts. Then, in 1862, there are notations discussing the completion of the matrix for the New Brunswick 20c, including the addition of the legend, followed by the matrix being brought into the die accounts. There seems little doubt that the master tools of the adopted reverse for the N.B. 20c were not completed prior to 1862. Why I think this mule was made will be discussed in the paper.

In any case, C-V, your coin is a beautiful treasure regardless of when and why it was created.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1427 Posts
 Posted 02/17/2020  1:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the information!

  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Coin Community Member eBay Sales

Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2020 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2020 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.19 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05