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1831 8 Reales Do Cap & Rays With Unusual Details

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 698Next Topic  
Valued Member
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 Posted 02/20/2020  10:03 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add RealPeso to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hey everyone,

It's been a while since I've picked up anything interesting but I did get this 8 Reales Durango Cap & Rays recently. The stamp looks like a match with the example in Resplandores but like always this series always throws us some curveballs.

Three things which jumped out at me on this piece.

1) This one came in heavy at 27.7G even teasing 27.8G a couple times on the scale. I know Durango early issues were notorious for not having a standard weight in the 1820's but for 1831 can this still be expected.

2) Reversed edge/rim, it definitely has a reversed edge which caught me by surprise. My closest 8R Durango is an 1827 which does NOT have the reversed edge and I have seen it before on debased originals from Zacatecas. I didn't know Durango issues could have them? Can a legit 8R Do still have the reversed edge or is this a sure sign of contemporary counterfeit?

3) Lastly, I just cannot see a "raised B" anywhere on the eagle's right foot no matter how much I look for it. It's illustrated in "Resplandores", but I wonder if it's worn out because I have been looking at pictures online of other 1831 Do's graded by PCGS and it seems a lot in XF you cannot see it, it just becomes a blob. Does anyone know if all original 1831 8R Durango's have the "raised B" or are there some that do not? If anyone has pictures of their 1830,1831 or 1832 Do "raised B" coins I would love to see them to compare.

Comments or knowledge very much appreciated!






Edited by RealPeso
02/21/2020 3:39 pm
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4947 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2020  4:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
RealPeso You have made a very interesting find.

The coin does look very similar to the example in Resplandores. Dunigan seems to indicate that all 1831 Do coins have the B since he indicates there are "No major varieties" known for the date.

The weight and the reversed edge design is extremely suspect.

If you refer to Riddell's "Monograph" # 363 you will find an example of an 1831 Do that Riddell efers to as a Counterfeit which is even a closer match to your coin than the Resplandores picture. The assay by Hort indicated that the Riddell coin was underweight at 0.82 (22.1 grams) and used an alloy that was only 683 fine silver.

So have you discovered an example of that illusive Riddell coin or not?

I think you need to get a VERY accurate SG reading to determine if the silver is up to standard. You should also get a laboratory XRF reading to confirm the alloy and SG.

The coin may simply be an extremely shoddy mint made overweight issue (no premium value) or it could be a counterfeit produced with dies possibly made at the mint and would be worth MORE than an original. (At least to a guy like me.)

Counterfeit issues are known to vary greatly in weight and assay so I would definitely check this one out. It may be heavy but if the alloy is near 683 instead of 900 fine it would definitely be fraudulent in value. That combined with the reversed rim would cause me to place it in the identical category as the 1835 Zs reversed rim coins which test as silver deficient.

Personally I have searched for years for the 363 with no luck. So far the examples I have bought are always near 900 fine, near 27 grams and XRF as legitimate even though they resemble the 363.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
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426 Posts
 Posted 02/22/2020  9:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RealPeso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamperbob Thank you very much for taking a look at my coin! Ugggh, I always seem to stumble on the debased 8R's or contemporary counterfeits. I am currently using a backup scale that just measures to the tenth decimal (broke my main one) and the new one is on backorder until March 18th So it's going to be awhile until I can get down to business with a proper SG test.

I studied Ridell #365 Ridell 363 before buying the coin and came to the conclusion that it wasn't a match because Ridell makes the following comment "Snake's neck to near eagle's head" and in the picture you can see that the snake's neck in #363 comes within grazing distance of the eagle's head and on mine there is a larger gap just like the original. Could it still be the #363 though?


Edited by RealPeso
02/22/2020 9:37 pm
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 Posted 02/22/2020  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I still see the # 363 (not 365 which uses French style) as a possible match.

If you notice in the Riddell picture the snake's body appears a bit thicker than on your photo, which could account for the perceived difference.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
426 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2020  11:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RealPeso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yep, sorry #363 not #365. I am hoping the SG test will help put some of my doubts to rest. In studying this piece and looking at other 1831 Do's online I realized that there were two different snake heads used that year besides smaller differences like feathering style to the right of the eagle's resting food and placement of the (1) in 1831 and the (o) in Do. It is a very interesting piece and hopefully I'll have some answers as soon as my new scale arrives. Hey swamperbob by the way, any updates on when your book on counterfeit Cap & Rays is going to be published, that's the one I am really excited about.
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 Posted 02/26/2020  3:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The piece very much smells regal from a distance, no? It has to at least come from regal dies or punches.

The comparison to the Riddell piece is interesting, and it is "close" from what you showed of the bird head area (I agree, may be some reproduced image distortion there). Can you crop/attach the entire Riddell 363 pic?

The overweight aspect does not bother me, FYI... Durango and really all of the branch mints are all over the place in those years. I don't know specifically about the "B", so I can't comment.

I like these late 1820s-1832 pre-French types. I believe I bought a very scarce 1832 Mex dies a few years back... and I recall paying up for it.
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426 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2020  12:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RealPeso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Realeswatcher,

That's what I was leaning towards also. I say it has to be from Regal Dies, the stamp is just too spot on for it not to be. I just didn't know the Durango 8R's also had cases of debased originals like the Go and Zs mints.

Here is the image of the Ridell 363 with my coin below.
It could very well be that 363 swamperbob has been looking for. I just got tired of all the cheap scales that kept breaking on me after a couple years so I ordered a nice Brecknell scale which measures to the hundredth that is on backorder until mid March so I have to wait a bit to solve the mystery. (hopefully)



Edited by RealPeso
02/27/2020 12:48 pm
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 Posted 02/28/2020  12:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those are, definitively, NOT the same Rays sides... Look at how the rays point at the legends lettering (e.g., R of the RM assayer).

Bird side? Need to study that some...
EDIT: bird side not identical, either... compare how the tip of the wing at 3 o'clock lines up against the nearby leaves

Very similar fonts, etc., though, on both sides.
Edited by realeswatcher
02/28/2020 12:57 am
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 Posted 02/29/2020  8:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One thing about mint made debased coins is that the bad planchets are not always struck using one die pair. The example seen in Riddell was only 683 fine silver so it is either a mint issued fraud or a counterfeit. Which of the two is still an open question in this particular case.

I believe that all 1831 Do 8Rs (along with other dates known to have fraudulent versions) should be checked for density. Until dozens perhaps hundreds of examples are checked there is no way to know if we are looking for one die pair or many.

It has already been established that there are several different die pairs used to strike the 1835 Zs OM debased coins with the reversed edge design.

I also check every 8R with a reversed edge and in that process I discovered a new fraud not listed in Riddell - an 1828 Ga.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 04/05/2020  03:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Got looking at some Durango pieces and ended up glancing back at my files... remembering that I did a bit of a study on these years for a bit.

What does Resplandores say about any difference in eagle styles within 1831? More specifically, there's a difference in the eagle head (style of the previous year vs. a new style used through the 1832 Mex. dies pieces)... was that just a small touch up or?
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 Posted 04/05/2020  11:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
At this point I think I need to clarify what I am searching for any why.

First Riddell lists in his book as # 363 an example of the 1831 Do RM which was assayed by Hort which proved to be 683 fine silver. The example was also underweight at 82% of the correct weight for an 8R. I have never encountered such a coin and I have been hunting for well over 20 years for that specific coin or one like it.

Second Riddell refers to the coin as a "Counterfeit". Riddell did have a category of "Debased" which apparently for him meant mint produced "under standard" (or fraudulent) coin and he did not include such a description here.

I have been very interested in the Riddell coin series for decades. Riddell raised in his book the subject of specific frauds not made in the way typical counterfeits were produced. Coins not made from false engraved dies.

Two of these particular topics are:

A. Mint made debased coins - struck in the mint on bad planchets either smuggled into the mint or made with the collusion of mint officials.

B. Coins made with genuine dies outside the mint -the result of selling dies and die tools as scrap metal without first defacing them.

I believe that Riddell's # 363 is an example of the A type. I believe that Riddell should have classified it as debased. I don't know why he chose not to.

This coin also displays a reversed edge design. About 30 years ago I recognized my first example of a reversed edge design. It was an 1835 Zs OM. I now own 25 or 30 of those coins - 1835 Zs OM with an edge (((((((())))))). Many but not all of these coins are also fraudulent - struck on debased planchets. These are common in my opinion.

The 1830 - 1832 Mexican style eagle 8Rs are all scarce to rare according to Dunigan.

Those are the facts as I know them.

My suspicion is that coins of this type were not made in large groups or I would have found them by now. They will be identified because they are debased silver - a fact easily confirmed by density tests. They were likely produced over a period of time and many dies may have been used (all genuine dies) to make them. These coins have one think in common they were fraudulent. They did not contain the correct amount of silver and anyone accepting them at face value would have been defrauded.

This would mean that for every genuine die pair there will definitely be coins struck on full weight planchets, but also a few fraudulent ones.

This would take a scarce to rare type and make it a very rare to exceedingly rare fraud.

I am suggesting that the ONLY way to identify coins that would fall into a theoretical Riddell # 363 Family is density. This coin would have a density of 9.93 instead of 10.31 - difference easily detected with a 1/100th gram balance. In the 1830s it would have been profitable for a thief working at the mint to produce planchets up to about 800 fine and still turn a profit.

I do not have enough money to buy every coin like this that I see because so far out of over a dozen I have bought, they were all the correct density and I lost money on every one of them that I sold. However, I certainly would start the bidding at $300 for a coin that meets this criteria for the 1832 Do RM Mexican dies - density lower than 9.95.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 04/06/2020  01:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, I skimmed quickly, will read more thoroughly later... but one thing:

GOOD LUCK even finding any 1832 Do Mexican dies pieces. They NEVER turn up!! I believe I bought a holed one I have a pic, but I'm not certain.

Now, 1831, you could CERTAINLY study... they're out there (TWO examples ended today alone) - and I would think you could break even price-wise if you bought judiciously.
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