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Questions On Authenticity? Lodz Ghetto 10 Marks Slabbed By PCGS

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Pillar of the Community
United States
4988 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2020  7:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I want to point out one thing that seems to be a point of confusion in this post. Several people have referred to Fake slabs. I want to point out that in this case the PCGS holders are 100% authentic - it is the only the coin inside that is a Counterfeit.

The topic of forged PCGS slabs is an entirely different subject.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
593 Posts
 Posted 05/31/2020  3:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numis-Northerner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
. I want to point out that in this case the PCGS holders are 100% authentic - it is the only the coin inside that is a Counterfeit.


People seem to forget that this is a possibility.
New Member
Poland
34 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2020  03:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gumer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS knows everything about US money, but their graders know almost nothing about foreign coins, especially old coins. I saw several slabs (we call them "coffins") with very common in Poland counterfeits. If I run such company, I would never grade coins about whom I know nothing. But money is everything.

@newguy22: Litzmannstadt Ghetto money is my only numismatic passion. I've been studying this particular subject since 2002, when I bought my first coin (magnesium 5 mark 1943).
Valued Member
Poland
81 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2020  12:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add norantyki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@gumer - nastepnym razem, gdy bedziesz w Warszawie, daj mi znac - mozemy wziac kawe lub piwo!
Edited by norantyki
06/05/2020 12:53 pm
New Member
United States
49 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2020  7:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Gumer

A little unsettling to think how many fake coins are out there that may have been slabbed by PCGS and are circulating among collectors. Would you say NGC is just as bad?
Pillar of the Community
United States
4988 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2020  8:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
newguy22 NGC tries to authenticate world coins unlike PCGS which relies primarily on the submitting dealer for authenticity. So NGC actually has more at stake when they authenticate coins. They do a BETTER job.

Actually now that I know why PCGS gets so many world coins wrong I have generally stopped collecting slabbed counterfeits from them - unless I can get them for significantly under $100.

NGC graded counterfeits still command a premium in my eyes, because in the long haul they get it right perhaps 98-9% of the time (at least recently - past 5-6 years). Back 10 years ago, there was a better chance of getting a counterfeit by them. However, even then they had an error rate of under 5%.

I always have believed ANACS was the best with the authenticity of world coins (provided Mike Fayhey saw the coin as finalizer). He was/is about the best in the business at world coins in general. I have yet to find a counterfeit (of the type I collect) that was encapsulated by them.

ICG also does a great job with most world counterfeits. Their guy Skip Fazarri is very good as well. I trust him.

So for world coins in general forget PCGS until they get world coin specialists and add ICG to your short list for authentication. ANACS, IGC, NGC. (Just a personal opinion.)

Grading I do not care at all about. Too subjective and foolish in particular the Sheldon 70 point scale which needs to be scraped for Screw Press and earlier strikes.

Anyone that owns a Circulating Counterfeit 8R encapsulated by ANACS post pictures.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
New Member
Poland
34 Posts
 Posted 07/01/2020  3:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gumer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
New Member
United States
49 Posts
 Posted 07/01/2020  8:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
gumer how can you tell?
Pillar of the Community
United States
4988 Posts
 Posted 07/01/2020  10:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
gumer I too would like an explanation as to why you know the 1943 Lodz Ghetto token is counterfeit?

Also is the estimate of 600 pieces accurate? For a mintage that low I would expect to see only one die pair not several different pairs which seems to be the case for this particular issue when you research on line archives.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
New Member
Poland
34 Posts
 Posted 07/02/2020  03:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gumer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sorry for my English. I hope it will be understandable for all what I'm going to write.
I've been studying the subject of Litzmannstadt Ghetto money for almost 20 years. This is my only numismatic passion. I've seen tons of ghetto coins and banknotes, I've visited a lot of archives, where I studied documents. Finally, I wrote three books about it: Banknotes of the Lodz Ghetto 1940-1944 (Polish), Coins of the Lodz Ghetto 1940-1944 (Polish) and Money of the Lodz Ghetto 1940-1944 (English). I also wrote several articles about it. I've tried to reach every place in Poland, where I could find informations related to my numismatic passion. I've tried to contact Yad Vashem many times, but they didn't respond, so I gave up. Unforunately, I can't afford to travel to the USA, to USHMM and other places, but I think the most valuable historical documents about LG money I found in Polish archives.
While I was a beginner, I tried to gather as much books and articles about LG money, but during my research, I found that many authors wrote a lot of nonsense information in their texts. How did I know that? Because I found many historical documents about coins and banknotes in our archives, wrote by Hans Biebow, the chief of Gettoverwaltung and Chaim Rumkowski, Der Aelteste Der Juden in Litzmannstadt. I found that many authors while they were writing their texts have never seen any of these documents! But this is the most valuable source of informations! So I began my own research and I found that informations like coins were made from shot down planes and 600 pieces of 20 mark coins are just a piece of nonsense.
Edited by gumer
07/02/2020 03:20 am
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
3597 Posts
 Posted 07/02/2020  08:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I saw several slabs (we call them "coffins") with very common in Poland counterfeits.


@gumer, I am building my collection of older (Kingdom) Poland coins, mostly buying from Polish auction firms like WCN, Niemczyk, Marciniak, Wojciki, WDA. I mostly buy raw (not slabbed) coins, but I am seeing increasing amounts of slabbed coins in these auctions (except WCN which has very few).
I hope these places are not selling the obvious counterfeits you mention?
New Member
Poland
34 Posts
 Posted 07/02/2020  10:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gumer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdziemia
I'm sorry, but I know nothing about the coins you buy. I can recommend you joining forum called TPZN. It's a Polish numismatic forum, but you can ask question in English. There are many experts in Kingdom coins, also ancient Greek and Rome coins.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4988 Posts
 Posted 07/02/2020  10:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
gumer Thank you for the explanation. It is always interesting to meet someone else with a focused interest in collecting one thing.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
New Member
Poland
34 Posts
New Member
United States
49 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2020  7:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
there are fakes everywhere....
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