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1786 Keyhole & Porthole - NGC Certified

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 Posted 06/05/2020  10:59 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

https://www.NGCcoin.com/certlookup/4794402-018/58/

Last time I remember reading about these there was still some discussion about whether all of them are Type II's or not. Did the group ever come to an agreement?



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 Posted 06/05/2020  3:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's like our broken castle discussion. Swamperbob has found non-regal, but clearly circulated examples that used damaged punches but so many high quality examples with the same damaged punches have been slabbed that the market will find them acceptable. They should be detectable by checking the SG and XRF (expecially Mexico City) but until the TPGs become believers that bullion frauds exist and should not be certified nothing will change.
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 Posted 06/05/2020  6:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can add nothing to what jgenn said so I will not try.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 06/06/2020  08:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you both.
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 Posted 10/19/2020  2:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another set of damaged windows on this 1789:



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 Posted 11/27/2020  09:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are some more 1786 Keyhole/Portholes

This one is in a PCGS MS62 holder and was part of the Huntington Collection donated to the HSA in the 1940's:



Another PCGS certified example - AU58



PCGS UNC Details - Questionable Color that later became straight-graded AU55


Another PCGS AU58


PCGS AU55


PCGS AU Details - Cleaned


PCGS XF45


Another XF45


PCGS VF Details - Tooled
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 Posted 11/27/2020  09:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another 1789 - PCGS XF45



XF Details - Cleaned



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 Posted 11/27/2020  10:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Let's check some 88's

PCGS MS61


PCGS AU55


AU Details - Cleaned


AU Details - Chop Marks


XF45


Another 45


And another 45


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 Posted 11/27/2020  10:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1787's

AU Details - Cleaned


Another AU Details


XF40


XF details - damage


VF Details - harshly cleaned


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 Posted 11/27/2020  11:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some counterstamped examples:

Type II rectangular G3 stamp:

https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com...s=1606494198

Here's a neat one - Glasgow Thistle Bank stamp (1811). The 4/9 stamp has been grill canceled on the obverse, the reverse still exhibiting the thistle mark.

https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com...s=1606494575

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 Posted 11/27/2020  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
TwoKopeiki I agree that there are likely hundreds even thousands of high grade examples of the Keyhole porthole coins in holders or that may get into holders. The problem is that NONE of these coins have been scientifically tested to determine their Specific Gravity. Until they are - the fraudulent coins with copper centers and thick Shellield plate will NEVER be detected and they will be gollected as if genuine.

Scientific testing is essential when coins of a particular type are found to have been struck on fraudulent planchets.

Note I am not saying that 100% of Keyhole porthole coins are struck on fraudulent planchets - I own a couple that test as 90% silver by SG. So both types seem to exist.

But who wants to pay top dollar for a very high grade fraud?

The TPG's do not authenticate coins using science. That is an absolute fact, they rely in most cases on visual clues to make their decisions. Until they get into the 19th century (regarding scientific testing of coins) perhaps it is better to rely on one's self in determining the authenticity of a coin.

Show me a some very worn examples of the Keyhole type that actually show the copper cores clearly in TPG holders and we can discuss the issue further. But showing me an endless string of high grade coins in TPG holders proves nothing at all except a misplaced reliance on commercial authenticating.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 11/28/2020  12:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Westwood Arms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob your point is well taken. Why would someone go to any extent to prove their coin is a fake? Remember about 10 years ago in Garner you said my 1790 8R had like three questionable points. It was sent to the lab and XRF showed no gold content. I talked to the lab and cut a deal for the local coin clubs to send coins in for analysis. No one sent in coins. SG is inexpensive, XRF maybe $50. People may not want to be aware that their $500 coin is really worth $20.
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 Posted 11/28/2020  10:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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 Posted 11/28/2020  11:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mostly courtesy of Worthpoint's eBay archive service:










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 Posted 11/28/2020  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting that an example was collected by Huntington. My understanding was that the collection was mostly completed by 1909 -- with the potential that the last pieces were acquired well within the timeframe of accurate die transfer technology and swamperbob's estimate for the heyday of bullion forging for the China trade.
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 Posted 11/28/2020  2:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Westwood Arms Nice to hear you had the coin tested. The no gold result is a clincher and points to a post 1870 restrike (silver counterfeit for purists who do not like the term restrike) made for the China market.

Also very nice to hear that XRF is being done. What lab did you use for testing the one at Research Triangle Park? I know when I spoke to them, they were at the time looking for outside work like that. I couldn't convince anyone else to do testing either.

I think your final comment unfortunately sums up the problem with dealers, collectors and the TPGs.


Quote:
People may not want to be aware that their $500 coin is really worth $20.


That is really part of the problem. When people buy counterfeits, especially when they spend a lot for them they do not want to know they are not genuine.

The other factor is the cost/difficulty of having scientific testing done.

Fear of losing money (or not making as much as you thought) is the natural response of most people who find their high grade coins are bogus. Only guy's like me like seeing coins in body bags. I expect that dealers react just like most anyone else and say why did I get it tested? So to avoid being in that position they avoid scientific testing.

Some don't understand the science or fear it is so complex that they could never grasp it. Specific Gravity sounds scary to them.

In the 1970's I worked for a coin dealer (deceased) who knew that he was selling silver counterfeits but did so "because they were silver, they looked genuine and he was selling them for just a couple dollars over melt". He was one of a small handful of people who actually knew about the production ring in New Bedford that operated up to the 1930s. He simply felt that no one would ever know because there was no way to detect them. In that case they were the correct alloy so SG testing did not work. He did not live long enough to see XRF.

I often test my coins to make sure they are counterfeit. It happens at times that I buy a "counterfeit" from a dealer that I find can not be proven to be counterfeit. I own at least two dozen in that category. I still refer to them as suspects.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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