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What Are People Doing? 1761 Mexican 8R With C/S

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 15 / Views: 474Next Topic  
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 Posted 06/05/2020  7:41 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I still can't understand people wasting their money like this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Reales-1...193492627917

As a test, can anyone here tell why I believe this is a worthless piece of junk?

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 06/05/2020  8:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@sb, not my area of expertise, so please don't go too hard on me if I'm way off.

Based on the smearing of metal, it looks like the edge design was added to this piece after the faces of the coin were struck. However, I thought that these were made with the edge design added first.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

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 Posted 06/05/2020  8:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If that is a counterstamp how did the design elements end up on top of it?
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 Posted 06/05/2020  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Spence You are correct, that is one tell. After 1756 in Mexico City the planchets were edged BEFORE the coin was struck. Therefore the fact that in a couple locations the edge design cuts into the die face design means this coin was edged AFTER in was struck.

There are several other tells for this coin.

By the way notice how high the bid is already. When I last checked there were 13 different bidders with the top 9 willing to pay over $200. Other than the opening chase of bidder 3711 by 415 (which might be a series of shill bids). I appears that some counterfeit collectors are involved in bidding this up.

THIS IS A NEARLY WORTHLESS NUMISMATIC FORGERY.

I would pay about $15 for the first example of this type sent to me and $1 per copy for all others after that. I believe that is a generous price for this hunk of scrap metal.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 06/05/2020  8:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gincoin43 Spence was referring to the edge design cutting into the dentiles not the central design. The Portuguese counterstamp from 1834 is another matter entirely.

BONUS QUESTION: Where do I theorize this coin was made? Why?
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 06/05/2020  8:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Gincoin43 Spence was referring to the edge design cutting into the dentiles not the central design


I know, but I didn't not know they added the edge before the strike. I'm having trouble seeing how that countermark could have been added after it was "made".
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 Posted 06/05/2020  9:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Spence You are correct, that is one tell


Ok good. That was fun for me to investigate and I've learned something today. I hope that you'll share some of the other tells too as this thread progresses.

I don't have much of an idea on your bonus question, but would guess that it came from the no-no site with a reeded edge and then someone (the seller?) has added the edge design to make it more authentic.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

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4979 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2020  12:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gincoin43 If you are referring to the right side of the counterstamp - that intrusion is due to a break in the punch - a chip out of the side of the punch that left that small area untouched.

On the left side border there are two lines that give the impression of somehow being on top of the counterstamp. That is due to the relative depth of the feature on the stamp versus the feature on the coin. The punch was not deep enough to eliminate all of the deep groves in the water under the dos mundos.

The stamp itself is well known to me. I have seen it before. It is a Forgery itself and initially many cull genuine coins were stamped to sell as rarities, but as even holed coins began to become more expensive the forgery ring turned to forged host coins.

So this is a recently created stamp applied individually to a recently produced coin.

Therefore the chipped punch with the poorly copied details is the second tell. Like I said it appears on both genuine and forged coins. Avoid it.

I believe that this punch has not been used for a period of several years. It was simply too easy to spot. So it was replaced by the forgers. However on the secondary market, it still keeps showing up from time to time. The seller/owner was likely the victim of fraud and may not even know that he/she is doing it again.

There are still several tells on this coin that are seen on a great number of numismatic forgeries. Here is a clue: Follow Spence's lead but look a little bit further. There is an anomaly that can NEVER happen on a Mexican screw press strike.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 06/06/2020  12:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Spence I will give you partial credit regarding your comment.


Quote:
I don't have much of an idea on your bonus question, but would guess that it came from the no-no site with a reeded edge and then someone (the seller?) has added the edge design to make it more authentic.


That is one possibility, but to prove it would require having the coin in hand to examine the edge in detail.

In this case, I believe the coin was originally created with the lotus edge because that same edge is often seen in connection with the products produced by the ring I was referring to in the bonus question. This source is not Asian.

Removal of a reeded edge and then replacing it with a better looking edge is always something to consider when reviewing any numismatic forgery.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 06/06/2020  12:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Comparing the stamp to the one example that I have in my collection reveals differences in details and size.


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 Posted 06/06/2020  01:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
jgenn The crude detail of the stamp (along with the chip) are tells that expose this forgery.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 06/06/2020  02:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm going to take two shots in the dark and say it was minted in Birmingham and the thing that is never seen in screwpress reales is uneven strike in the denticles.
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 Posted 06/06/2020  02:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Or maybe thing thing that is never seen electroplating.
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 Posted 06/06/2020  1:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Was this fake struck with a collar to impress the edge design? That would never happen for the genuine issue. It certainly looks well centered, perfectly round and the dentils don't extend all the way to the edge.
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 Posted 06/06/2020  8:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gincoin43 You were on the right track when you remarked about the dentils. However you are incorrect believing the coin was produced in Birmingham.

jgenn You have the critical tell - the dentils do not extend to the edge of the coin.

The dies used in screw press strikes were always larger in diameter than the planchet that was placed on the anvil die. This is a fact that collectors of screw press coins must always keep in mind when looking at a coin. For this reason the ENTIRE WIDTH of the planchet must be struck. There is a blank margin at field height that extends beyond the outer edge of the dentil circle, so even if you see both ends of a denticle the planchet should still show die contact to the edge.

This gave the hapless individual risking his fingers for each coin in a better position to center the planchet.

The planchet was placed BY HAND on the lower (anvil die). That is an important point as well. The operation required a person to remove the previously struck coin and place a blank planchet on the die. This had to be done very quickly in a second or so. The fingers used in a modern high speed press are so named because they replace actual fingers of an operator.

The screw meanwhile is in constant motion being swung with full force to the fully open position before bouncing off the stop and then returning at full force (with the help of two operators pulling on ropes attached to counterweights) for the next strike. There was a long steel bar mounted atop the screw with counterweights at each end. This was a very heavy assembly swung by ropes attached to the weights. The open position lasted just about a second or so. Production targets of 60 strikes per minute seem to be average.

Failure to insert a planchet meant the steel dies collided - clashed. The chances of breaking one or both dies at that point was high. Clashes were costly for everyone if a break occurred. Mounting new dies could take hours. Meanwhile production stopped.

All of the staff were paid based on how many coins were struck using a percentage of the total value coined. A clash or a slow operator would lower all paychecks.

That is why the strike is not perfectly centered. There was no positioning collar on early screw presses.

Another requirement for an acceptable coin was the edge design and the dentil ring. Both had to be complete to avoid clipping or shaving the coin.

Therefore the dentils were lozenge shaped and over 2 times as long as needed for a centered strike. That was done so that an acceptable coin with some part of the dentil ring all around the coin happened on most strikes.

Off center coins were re-cycled so were weak strikes and multiple strikes if the King's portrait or central devices was effected. At least at Mexico City. All rejects did not count toward output.

So what we see here - in particular below the date are the tips of the dentils only. The dentils stop short of the actual edge of the coin. That is not possible on a genuine 8R.

This is the Key Tell that condemns this as a Numismatic Forgery.

BONUS ANSWER

This coin was not struck in Birmingham. It is my belief that it was struck in Spain and the counterstamp was applied in Spain by the same forgery ring that produced the infamous "Catalogo Marcas, Resellos y Contramarcas" in the early 2000's which pictures many of the forged coins and counterstamps. The booklet was made to sell counterfeits as genuine. See my book page 187.

I have been following this group's output since the days of the catalogo and this has all the earmarks of their work.

Unfortunately the bid is now up to $280 with #2 outbidding #617 today.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 06/13/2020  01:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The final sale price for this fake was $ 565.55.

There were 19 different bidders with six people OVER $350.

Once again a felony level fraud allowed under the let the buyer beware policy.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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