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Question For Older Collectors

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 547Next Topic  
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 Posted 06/28/2020  7:39 pm Show Profile   Check louisvillekyshop's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I am going through a lot of coins with cellophane that is brittle and tags written probably 30-40 years ago. And having done this before I have noticed a trend. Denarius and other imperial coins have prices written less then you see today in auction houses and even eBay, but provincials can say $200 - $500 easily and often $400? written. But I sell them and they go much lower then the Denarius or imperial As, Dupondius, or Sestertius. Were these just more rare once or are there more people wanting Roman Imperial coins collections from Rome and thus more buyers drove up the price? And less people caring about provincials today?
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 Posted 06/28/2020  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob L to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Curious to see what replies you get, Joe. If I collected Romans, I'd definitely be more interested in Provincials than Imperial or Republic. I find them so much more interesting.

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 Posted 06/28/2020  9:13 pm  Show Profile   Check FVRIVS RVFVS's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I never bought "provincials" until shortly after the millennium
Well I think I actually had one
Which I had paid close to one hundred dollars for !
Around this time several sellers who had emigrated to the United States began dumping thousands of bronzes on eBay
Coins that I was accustomed to seeing at $80-100 ask were being auctioned off for $20-25
Mostly from Markianopolis and Nikopolis
The state run museums of former "People's Republics" apparently had enormous inventories of these items
down in the basements that somehow ........
Ended up in the west !
I know there was controversy at the time about "legitimacy"
Several dealers went through heck with the IRS
How they ended up on the market I cannot say
But they did
Prices have never recovered and the supply seems almost endless

IN GOD WE TRVST ....... all others pay cash !

COGITO ERGO SPVD
I think ...... therefore I yam
Edited by FVRIVS RVFVS
06/28/2020 9:16 pm
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 Posted 06/28/2020  9:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I became interested in ancients around 1973. The market was very different. Perceptions of rarity and value were different. It's not a simple answer. I will say that I do remember buying nice provincials very reasonably.
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 Posted 06/28/2020  10:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would keep the old information related to the old pricing,
provided that you can ascribe an exact date to that pricing.

Write that info on the 2x2 cardboard / Mylar flip, along with the attribution information.
In a small way the flip can harry a history relating to the coin.
Move the coin around the collection, and all of the information relating to the coin travels with it.

I always write the date and price on the flip of any and all coins I buy, not just ancients, at the time of their acquisition.
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 Posted 06/29/2020  12:17 am  Show Profile   Check FVRIVS RVFVS's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For what it's worth
In the words of Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"You are entitled to your own opinion
But you are not entitled to your own facts"
The raw numbers and the geography in this case
are not in dispute
http://savingantiquities.org/why-co...marketplace/
IN GOD WE TRVST ....... all others pay cash !

COGITO ERGO SPVD
I think ...... therefore I yam
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 Posted 06/29/2020  02:42 am  Show Profile   Check louisvillekyshop's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Honestly, thinking about my original question now, I was neglecting for inflation even if there was an inverse trend of provincial to imperial or not, and with the massive new debt we just added to our economy, (3 trillion in the past 6 months to 26.3 trillion) and no one going to address this, maybe jobs lost for good and unemployment running out even in half a year, we are due for a Franklin Roosevelt set of moves to perhaps universal basic income so massive inflation would have to occur if we don't devalue the currency and just print credit lines to ourselves. Hopefully this was all a good investment for collectors and they hold real value for collectors. But Roosevelt was able to put people on public work shipping them to build buildings for government projects if they were unemployed and we probably can't do that anymore. So our model might just be Bread and Circuses and who knows what anything will be worth.
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 Posted 06/29/2020  02:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Collectors will always want to collect. I'd be more worried about ancient coin collecting being legislated out of existence.
Edited by Kushanshah
06/29/2020 02:50 am
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 Posted 06/29/2020  07:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Honestly, thinking about my original question now, I was neglecting for inflation


So, applying the changes in U.S. CPI since 1980, 1990, 2000 for a coin purchased for $10 in each of those years ...
- the coin purchased in 1980 has done better than inflation if it is now worth more than $31
- The coin purchased in 1990 has done better than inflation if it is now worth more than $20
- The coin purchased in 2000 has done better than inflation if it now worth more than $15
https://www.minneapolisfed.org/abou...-index-1913-


Quote:
So our model might just be Bread and Circuses and who knows what anything will be worth.


We'll see.
Edited by tdziemia
06/29/2020 07:40 am
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 Posted 06/29/2020  08:51 am  Show Profile   Check FVRIVS RVFVS's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Collectors will always want to collect. I'd be more worried about ancient coin collecting being legislated out of existence.


We are in general agreement about this
Museums cannot simply be the repositories for each and every item recovered from each and every hole dug into the earth
Nor are museums immune to the shenanigans that occur in the real world
Two hundred years ago during the beginning of the Great golden age of museums they competed with each other and with everyone else
They financed excavations in the great search for "loot"

But what then becomes of the "loot" ?
An interesting aside ........
My entire life I have been fascinated and somewhat obsessed by the Trojan War and Henry Schliemann
Twenty years ago a found a small "fill in" story in the NYT
A young woman working an internship at the local museum found two dusty old crates stored away in the basement of the museum
No records existed of these crates
The only identification were faded shipping labels that ID'd the contents as "Purchased from Frank Calvert 1890"
The story went on to say the crates contained grey pottery of unknown origin
Now being somewhat fluent in the story I immediately recognized the name Frank Calvert !
He had owned a site in Northwest Turkey which he had been digging holes with a few locals for twenty years when a strange little man named Schliemann came looking for the site of ancient Troy
After purchasing the site he literally ripped it to shreds in the search for "the good stuff"
Unknown to Henry the engineers of Alexander had leveled the site as Alex had plans to rebuild the city of lore
Schliemann ignored Calverts advice to go slow
He also discarded most of what he found as unimportant as he dug deep into the Tel searching for the good stuff and the loot that the museums craved
The good news is modern archaeology has shown
(and which I had always suspected !) that the Tel of Hisarlik formed the acropolis of ancient Troy not the city itself ! ( thank Zeus !)

And that grey pottery the article mentions ?
It can only be the "new" type of pottery Schliemann found throughout the Aegean which he named Grey Minyan ware
The type which Frank Calvert patiently gathered for over twenty years
To think that it has been sitting less than a mile from where I live
Today my brother (MARCVS OBLIVIVS) sits on the Board of this same museum
And you know what ?
I had him inquire about these two crates
(personally I would kill to see them and actually hold a piece)
But no one seems to know what he is talking about !

The lost remains of ancient Troy were discovered sitting right next to me !
And now no one knows where they went !
Arrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh


IN GOD WE TRVST ....... all others pay cash !

COGITO ERGO SPVD
I think ...... therefore I yam
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 Posted 06/29/2020  09:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add travelcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, I don't have much to add as I am relatively new to this hobby. But I just wanted to say that this was a very interesting read.

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 Posted 06/29/2020  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My coins are are centuries older than me.
Because of this, I feel somewhat like a museum curator, rather than just a collector of ancient coins.
Thus, I feel as if I am a custodian of them, not an owner.

As far as inflation is concerned, that is the reason why I have always noted the date acquired and the price paid on the 2x2, so the real value then and now can be more accurately assessed.
Also helps with provenance, if the source is also noted.
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 Posted 06/30/2020  04:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I thought I might add that some coins are much less expensive today than they were 40 years ago, inflation or not: Indo-Greek silver (thank you Mir Zakah hoards); coins of Procopius (thank you opening the Iron Curtain); Sogdian coins (thank you eBay)...
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 Posted 06/30/2020  07:08 am  Show Profile   Check FVRIVS RVFVS's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Forty two years ago I purchased my first Copper As of Caligula
I paid $200 and was happy as a clam !
Fifteen years later I attended the NYC International and bought one two grades better for slightly more than double that !
Now twenty plus years after that (thanks to the "internets" !) I have three Copper As of Caligula two of which are a full grade better than my previous best !
The other is my Caligula-Germanicus "mule"
For these three 'gems' I paid nearly the same dollar amount that I paid for the first two so very long ago
The obscene prices I often see today are a crime
They actually abet the fraud and deceit we see all to often
Personally .........
I wish the prices would crash and I could go back to being a simple collector of Roman bronze
But to feed my 'addiction' I must peddle them too
But .......
You do what you gotta do !

PS
I almost never record the price I paid for a coin
To me it's almost irrelevant
If I can't remember what I paid for it ......
I probably paid too much !
IN GOD WE TRVST ....... all others pay cash !

COGITO ERGO SPVD
I think ...... therefore I yam
Edited by FVRIVS RVFVS
06/30/2020 07:11 am
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 Posted 06/30/2020  09:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add travelcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the ease of accessibility of ancients and the "Magic of Hollywood" have also contributed to the price hikes. Have you ever noticed that Commodus and Marcus Aurelius coins are sometimes referenced to the movie Gladiator? These fairly common coins are always sold at a premium as compared to lesser known emperors. This also opens the market up to movie collectors as well. Millions of people who would have never known who these two were are now interested in owning a historic piece of their favorite character.
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