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1880-O Morgan. Grade? (Practice)

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 Posted 07/03/2020  7:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ploopy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My first thought on this was AU58. No way its a mint state coin.
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 Posted 07/03/2020  7:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BuyGuns to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coinfrog, you are usually right. Be easier on yourself.
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 Posted 07/04/2020  03:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BuyGuns to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I need that confidence that comes from experience, which I am well acquainted within my job descriptions of the past. It is a motivating thing to have that experience/confidence when you are faced with some serious challenges.

In Coin World...statements like "that looks like a solid AU58" Or, "That's an AU58 all day". Etc. That can only come from confidence that years of experience bring to the table. I have been trying to compress that into the last couple of years. Lol. Not there yet. Imagine that? Haha

But I look at this coin and I have no confidence of a guaranteed ballpark grade, meaning close. But I have enough naive experience to swear it's at least an MS64...or more (I hear the laughter). And now whining that it is not. .

Just going to take time, and due diligence to get that level of "I got this". And I have more than enough awesome coins IMO that will be the next victims....or saviors! . But I will say it again and again...I love the hunt, and I love the challenge. And after this first spectacular failure of a stack of graded coins gone bad, I am that much more determined.

And some more spectacular failures coming shortly. I will post. These you all will go too bad so sad. My bust. Haha. That's OK, but it will prove to some newbs like me, to be very careful, because even a sure bet looking coin can be a total bust. I will post asap, but too painful at the moment. Haha Hint: "Chief Warpaint" went down in flames. Got stampeded by a herd of Buffalo. . "Chief Better Dayz" proved his best days are long gone. Lol. And more. Need a break. Give me about 48 hours. lol
Edited by BuyGuns
07/04/2020 03:24 am
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 Posted 07/04/2020  04:31 am  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Alright, it's breakdown time!


Quote:
almost every coin out there, save the sealed from mint type, has been in some kind of circulation


Yeah, I'd agree with that. Though technically if I crack a BU roll, and buy something from a friend and toss his a quarter from the roll technically it has been circulated. However, the reason I'm not a fan on the AU tag is one I'll elaborate on shortly.


Quote:
Having said that, it is why they have TEN levels of Mint State. Yes? If any circulation shows, which you can find on about any coin, then all of them would be AUXX with any signs of circulation nullifying an MS designation.


The ten levels of mint state were created to originally grade morgan and Peace dollars actually, but were quickly applied to all US coins. Essentially it worked like this originally. You had MS60, the worst possible a coin can be without any signs of wear or significant mishandling. MS65 a coin free of detracting marks with no signs of wear or mishandling. MS70, a perfect coin. The reason I don't like AU is that it stands for about uncicrculated. I would much prefer the term AM (about mint). I feel this describes the grade MUCH better. When you have to explain the difference between an AU58 and MS60 and you try to use the terms "mishandled unc" or such it just gets too confusing for people who don't have a few years grading experience under their belt. AM describes it better IMO. It is in about mint condition, however shows signs of wear and mishandling to a degree reflective of its numerical grade. The way I always explain it is that a coin can be circulated and still be mint state, but a coin with wear cannot be MS. The dividing line occurs when their is wear on the devices. I don't care if the coin has changed pockets a few times, as long as it hasn't worn, in my eyes, and in technical terms, it's still UNC (MS). The other thing is mishandling, especially on gold will quickly drop a coin from MS to AU. Simply put if you never circulated a coin but left it in your pocket for a few weeks when you went out and about, very quickly it'd be AU. Simply because the mishandling caused friction which in turn causes wear.


Quote:
AUXX to me is a circulated coin that reaches a certain level of wear, that exceeds any chance of achieving one of the Ten Mint State conditions. MS-60 has been compromised. Hence...AUXX. Seems logical to me. What I have to get better at is looking at a coin like this one I submitted, and determine how it qualifies for one of the TEN levels of any Mint State, to have a more acceptable coin in my arsenal. I just looked at PCGS Photograde for AU55 Morgan.


Not sure what you were trying to say (maybe cause it's 4AM) but, I think what you're saying is that in your opinion an AU coin is a coin with minimal amounts of wear, right? Your wording was a bit confusing.


Quote:
So, even though as some have noted, "I see some evidence of circulation...it's an AUXX", I say Ok. But this coin from a known substandard Mint (New Orleans), I would think would start from a grading baseline with that taken into consideration. Add some circulation evidence. But still in a 'Mint State" condition. One of the ten levels. So to me, this is a Mint State coin with some wear, evidence of circulation. Again.....that's why we have TEN levels of Mint State. Otherwise, it would be ONE Mint State condition. No levels. "Uhhh, there's a mark. A hairline. A bit of a rub mark, etc.. Duhhhh, Larry, you see that? Here, look in my 1000X microscope. A mark! Yup. No MS. It's an AUXX


Alright, so I'm gonna break this into a few parts to address this better.


Quote:
But this coin from a known substandard Mint (New Orleans), I would think would start from a grading baseline with that taken into consideration. Add some circulation evidence. But still in a 'Mint State" condition.


So. Ok. The fact that the strikes are substandard is taken into consideration, and you can have some disgusting, atrocious strikes and still have a MS coin. That's all taken into consideration, and well seasoned graders know the difference between strike weakness and wear. The part where it gets tricky is your usage of "circulation evidence" as it can mean things to different people. Generally circulation evidence is a combination of luster impairment and wear. For example, if I'm quite suspicious that a coin may be AU but has strike weakness and blistering luster, I'm gonna bet that it's MS. That is because by definition an MS coin can have luster impairment, but no wear. An AU coin can have luster impairment and wear. So. To recap. It is taken into consideration, but wear isn't excusable, and circulation evidence is more or less equal to someone saying wear.


Quote:
So to me, this is a Mint State coin with some wear, evidence of circulation. Again.....that's why we have TEN levels of Mint State. Otherwise, it would be ONE Mint State condition. No levels


We're getting to the bottom of your confusion! A MS coin can NEVER have wear as it would be a contradiction to it's own name. Logic states a worn item isn't in its state, that rule follows to coins as well. To break down the 10 levels of MS MS that's gonna be a challenge, but here goes the theory.

Coins, in this case Morgan dollars are made of hard metal, in this case 90%, 10% copper. In order to make the blanks strikeable you need to make them slightly malleable. Once you've done so (I'm skipping over some stuff, but just generally understand you make them malleable) they are struck. The next part needs some understanding of thermodynamics, but when coins are struck it's under immense pressure which creates a ton of heat. Because of that coins fresh of the press are actually quite prone to damage because of how soft their surfaces are and because they can be easily blemished while malleable. Most bag marks and nicks and such you see on Morgan dollars are from when the surfaces were so soft.

Now why is that all important? We use the 10 levels of MS to describe how a coin that has not experienced any wear, any circulation, nothing a Mint State coin has faired from striking to bagging. The each of the MS grades describes the number and severity of any flaws gained during this period. Because when we do this, we are describing a MS coin, no wear is allowable. So basically whenever you go up a grade you go down X amount of marks until you hit MS70 (perfect) or go down and hit MS60 (worst possible without having any wear or anything that would detail it). The reason we need 10 is to describe the different number and severity of marks.


Quote:
Maybe that is a naive assessment, though I understand ANA takes many things into consideration, and I accept that, I don't have to like it. No one does. We play by the rules as set though. But to ask questions and try to understand the "Why" of a head-scratching grade, is normal. Completely fair. It does not change my view that I don't see what the professionals see with decades of experience. I get that. And still, accept it. Just frustrating as not being experienced, to catch up to the "Why". And let's admit it...even experienced folks/experts have disagreements on grading. So, all fair questions/statements as I see above in this chain, and many others


Change your settings to that I can send you an email thru CCF and I'll send you the link to a 2hr long lecture on grading hosted by the ANA earlier this week.

As for the Kennedy I just think they dropped the ball, PCGS isn't great for Moderns, that's more NGC's speed. Regardless it looks like a SP66CAM to me.

Well that's all from me. It is now 4:30am and I'm going to bed.
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/236574/
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
Edited by GrapeCollects
07/04/2020 11:05 am
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 Posted 07/04/2020  5:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BuyGuns to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Grapecollects...I want to thank you first, for taking the time to read my novel, and then writing your own in response. I just saw it. I am going to chew on it. I feel if you spend your time to give that detailed response, I owe the same measure of consideration. I have to take care of some projects, but wanted you to know I will respond.

And how do you do that GRAY box quote thing on CC? Don't see any links/buttons for that. Ok. I'll be back (Arnold) :-)
Edited by BuyGuns
07/04/2020 5:21 pm
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 Posted 07/04/2020  9:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add smalldawg59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No way this is a Mint State coin. No real luster, it has a washed out look, like the obverse has been thumb rubbed. The obv and rev fields have a scuffed-up look to them indicating brief circulation. Nice AU probably 55.
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 Posted 07/05/2020  1:13 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
wanted you to know I will respond


Alright, sounds good.


Quote:
And how do you do that GRAY box quote thing on CC? Don't see any links/buttons for that.



My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/236574/
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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