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1947 Canadian 1 Cent, Blunt 7 Punched Over Pointed 7, Opinions?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 13 / Views: 541Next Topic  
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 Posted 07/16/2020  12:28 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I posted this a while back while using my old microscope and I didn't really get much feedback but I think that was because the photos I provided were really not that great at all.

Anyways, I've had this 1947 1 Cent for about a year now that I just cant decide on if it is a Blunt 7, or Pointed 7 and was curious if it were possible for it to be a Blunt 7 punched Over a Pointed 7 I ask because when I do an overlay of the Blunt 7 and Pointed 7 the results are identical to the coin in question.

So I'm curious to know everyones opinion and hopefully figure out which one of the two it is.




Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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Canada
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 Posted 07/16/2020  11:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have the identical situation on 2 1947 dollars... will post images soon.
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 Posted 07/16/2020  12:08 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I see anomalies like that on a lot of the dates in Canadian 1-cent coins, how do you eliminate the possibility of this being a die chip?
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Canada
636 Posts
 Posted 07/16/2020  2:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I see anomalies like that on a lot of the dates in Canadian 1-cent coins, how do you eliminate the possibility of this being a die chip?


When I first got this coin that is what I thought this was, but after seeing that this anomaly is level with the rest of the 7, when you overlay a pointed 7 over top of it they match perfectly and the points match in size and the appropriate angles, from my understanding although die chips can be random and "convenient" at times, I never thought one could be this precise.

Also add in that the mint produced 2 different 7's on the 1947 1 cent penny, which makes me think couldn't there be a possibility they could have simply placed the blunt 7 right over top of a pointed 7 or vice versa?


Pointed 7



Coin in Question




Overlay of the Pointed 7 over the Coin in Question with Opacity set at 50%, I also get this exact image when I do a Blunt 7 Overlaying the Coin in Question.




Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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 Posted 07/16/2020  5:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did check the 2 $1 1947 I have and thought these were similar. But mine are not. Check my new post and see for yourself.
the 7 is not the same as yours.
But, your cent is a ML and I am not sure if P7s 1 cent were ever struck with a ML.
Edited by 47P7
07/16/2020 6:14 pm
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Canada
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 Posted 07/16/2020  6:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
47P7, there was 3 versions minted in 1947.

1947 - 1 Cent - With no Maple Leaf
1947 - 1 Cent - Pointed 7 with Maple Leaf
1947 - 1 Cent - Blunt 7 with Maple Leaf

Im not sure of the correct order they go in, but that is the order I have read online.
Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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 Posted 07/16/2020  8:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
you do realize the ML coins were minted in 1948... as far as I know.
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Canada
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 Posted 07/16/2020  10:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
47P7,
Yes, the 1947 Blunt and Pointed 7's were minted in 1948 from my understanding.



Quote:
In 1948, India was granted independence from the British Empire. Because of this, the words "ET IND IMP" (And Emperor of India) had to be removed from all obverse coin dies.
There was a demand for new 1948 coins, but delays in the manufacture of the updated dies forced the Mint into a second production run using the 1947 dies. To differentiate regular 1947 coins from the second production run a small maple leaf was engraved to the right of the date on the reverse dies.


Quote came from here under the 1947 1 cent maple leaf reverse varieties.
http://www.saskatooncoinclub.ca/art...es.html#1947


I know there was a lot going on at the mint in 1947/1948 and from the sounds of it there was a lot of room for error, and that is why I'm curious to know of the possibility my coin could be a Blunt 7 over a Pointed 7 or simply the result of a random really convenient die chip.
Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
Edited by JohnWayne007
07/16/2020 10:39 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
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 Posted 07/16/2020  11:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No, I believe the ML only were 1948 minted.
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Canada
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 Posted 07/17/2020  01:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cdngmt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As described (by 47P7 above) the 1947 ML was issued in 1948 because the new dies for 1948 without "et Ind" had not arrived in Canada in time.....
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 Posted 07/17/2020  02:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
As described (by 47P7 above) the 1947 ML was issued in 1948 because the new dies for 1948 without "et Ind" had not arrived in Canada in time.....



Yes, I was aware of that before 47P7 mentioned it, however that was not the original questions I asked.

Question one is,

I would like to know which of the two were produced first, was the 1947 pointed 7 ML minted first and later the blunt 7 ML was produced, or were they both being minted at the same time, there must be a reason/time frame as to why and when they decided to change from pointed 7 to blunt 7 or vice versa and I am curious to know.

Question 2 is,

Would it be possible for a Blunt 7 to be struck over a Pointed 7 ML?

As far as I am aware in 1947 they were hand punching the last digit on the dies, so how hard would it be for them to take a blunt 7 and punch it over a few pointed 7 dies and call it a day.
Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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Canada
1677 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2020  12:47 pm  Show Profile   Check nickelsguy's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nickelsguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As with all denominations the maple leaf was added to existing (used)dies. The seven may have been "touched up" as well.
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 Posted 07/17/2020  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is no doubt that the maple leaf was hand punched into every working die (that is why there are spacing variants), and I have seen the actual maple leaf punch at the BOC Currency Museum.

I am just thinking and reverse engineering here, but wouldn't a punch with a broken tip on the pointed seven would be easier to repair and covert to a blunt 7 (with the devices being raised on the punch), and which perhaps allowed the punch to sink several more working dies? Just food for thought...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

My eBay store
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/18/2020  7:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I am just thinking and reverse engineering here, but wouldn't a punch with a broken tip on the pointed seven would be easier to repair and covert to a blunt 7 (with the devices being raised on the punch), and which perhaps allowed the punch to sink several more working dies? Just food for thought...


I had this thought as well, but my conclusion was if that were the case would the Pointed 7 punch that was repaired and converted to a blunt 7 be smaller than that of a normal blunt 7 punch?

There is more than 1 way to differentiate the Pointed 7 and Blunt 7.

On a Pointed 7, you can see not only is the tip pointed, but all 3 tips on the top of the 7 are pointed, also the edges of the devices are sharp.

On the Blunt 7, you will notice along with the "blunt" tip is a lot thicker, you will see all the other tips are rounded, the edges of the device is also rounded.

Now if you look at the following image, you will see that the coin in question (in the middle) has both of the characteristics of the Pointed 7 on the left and the Blunt 7 on the right.




The rounded edges of the device are also not due to circulation, or wear. I know this from all of the 1947 Blunt 7's and 1947 Pointed 7's, the blunt 7 is more rounded and "blunt" while the 1947 Pointed 7's are literally, pointed and sharp in all Mint State examples I have seen.

So I am still not exactly sure what to call this coin, but I am convinced it is some how both.
Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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