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1934 China Junk Dollar "Questionable Authenticity"

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 Posted 07/23/2020  2:57 pm Show Profile   Check ksammut's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add ksammut to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi all! I had sent in this 1934 China Junk Dollar to be certified by NGC, but it came back "Questionable Authenticity". No explanation accompanied the coin of why they couldn't confirm it's authenticity, but I was wondering if anyone here knew the tell-tale signs of a counterfeit. The weight and diameter are correct and it looks good in hand. Depending on the responses, I may send it in to PCGS and see what they think. Thanks!



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 Posted 07/23/2020  3:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numis-Northerner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks perfectly fine to me.
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 Posted 07/23/2020  4:36 pm  Show Profile   Check Lancek's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Lancek to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lots of fakes coming from China. Especially Chinese coins. As I understand it, there is no law in China against making coins like this. As long as it is not currently circulating coinage. Not saying this is fake. But I personally would never buy a high value old Chinese coin that isn't slabbed by a reputable TPG.

With coins that have a high collectors value, counterfeiters can afford to use real silver. So it's easier to get the weight right.
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 Posted 07/23/2020  7:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Serious authenticators keep some forgery detection details secret, particularly on recent, good quality fakes. Serious forgers would want to know these "tells" and fix them for their next batch. That being said, we the public don't know how seriously NGC looked at this coin. I suspect the more valuable coins get better attention.
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Australia
17266 Posts
 Posted 07/23/2020  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks OK to me, but that doesn't mean much.
High quality fake coins are always much harder to identify from screen pictures than low quality obvious fakes.

I would suggest to take it to a scrap gold buyer and
have it examined using a hand held XRF instrument, looking for silver purity and proportion other alloying metals.
They may ask for a fee for this examination.

This test not 100% conclusive, because I suspect some fake blanks are silver plated.

Investigation can be taken further with specific gravity (density) testing.

'Gut feeling' test is good as well. If not 100% completely satisfied, either don't buy or return it.
You already have NGC's opinion to back you up.
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 Posted 07/23/2020  9:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
'Gut feeling' test is good as well. If not 100% completely satisfied, either don't buy or return it.
You already have NGC's opinion to back you up.


Same thing happened to me and I returned mine, dealer was not happy and the relationship has not been the same since, grey area here.
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 Posted 07/23/2020  9:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, some dealers do not like their "opinions" to be challenged. However, your dealer is NOT a neutral party when it comes to authenticating a coin that your dealer wants to sell to you.
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 Posted 07/23/2020  11:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Yes, some dealers do not like their "opinions" to be challenged. However, your dealer is NOT a neutral party when it comes to authenticating a coin that your dealer wants to sell to you.


True, I agree.
But consider this; in the future if the dealer has any other good items would he want to sell it to the person who might send it for grading and return it, or to the other bloke who asks no questions ?
Edited by Numister
07/23/2020 11:17 pm
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 Posted 07/24/2020  10:33 am  Show Profile   Check ksammut's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ksammut to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the help, everyone! The dealer I purchased it from (quite a while back) is a good friend, so I'm not worried about returning it if it does turn out to be fake. I'll show it to another local dealer who is very knowledgeable and trustworthy and see what he thinks. I'll probably send it in to PCGS just to have it certified. Thanks again!
Young Numismatist - You are welcome to visit my eBay store: https://www.ebay.com/str/numismaticswithkenny - over 2000 numismatic listings!
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 Posted 07/24/2020  2:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry to drift away from the original thread but I think we have an interesting discussion going on here about dealer relations.


Quote:
Quote:
Yes, some dealers do not like their "opinions" to be challenged. However, your dealer is NOT a neutral party when it comes to authenticating a coin that your dealer wants to sell to you.


True, I agree.
But consider this; in the future if the dealer has any other good items would he want to sell it to the person who might send it for grading and return it, or to the other bloke who asks no questions ?


Yes, I suppose you might not get first crack at the better quality items unless you are already the dealer's top customer. If you are not one of the top customers than the question is moot because the top customers will likely get their shot first.

For us little guys, thank goodness we have other shops, coin shows and the internet to help us find what we want and can afford. It's a bit different if your focus is narrow. My local shops don't carry a decent selection of the world crowns that I like to collect.
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 Posted 07/24/2020  3:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't see anything wrong with this coin. It doesn't look any different than this graded piece, unless I am missing something. http://www.pegasusauctions.com/image/data/I99.jpg
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 Posted 07/24/2020  4:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If NGC can't make out authenticity of posted coin, not sure PCGS will fair any better, the strikes are sharper than from IndianGoldEagle link images as far as I can tell, especially the reverse, the sail on the junk ship are really detailed, as it maybe from a very early die? It probably grade higher than a MS-64 coin if it proven authentic?

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 Posted 07/24/2020  5:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add machine20 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You had to pay for them to say they don't know whether it's real or not?
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 Posted 07/24/2020  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ machine20:
That's a very fair question!
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 Posted 07/24/2020  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Check jdmern's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are many Chinese crowns struck in good silver which will have the correct weight and diameter. Some of these have fooled major auction houses, dealers and even TPGs. I have a couple of Dragon Dollars sitting in my office that fooled a major auction house and myself, but came back as questionable from both PCGS and NGC. All correct weight, no clear die diagnostic problems, all correct everything.

And yes, when TPGs say 'questionable authenticity' or 'Unable to determine Authenticity', you still have to pay for that opinion.
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 Posted 07/24/2020  9:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hard to say - this might be a later restrike type.

Do you have a photo of the edge?
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