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Is This 5 Pesetas Alfonso XII 1885 Genuine?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 15 / Views: 692Next Topic  
Valued Member

Singapore
51 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2020  11:15 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Coins Mania to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi all,

This is my first Spanish coin, hope is the real thing!

The effigy looks like he has just shaven. Due to worn down? It weighs 24.7g



Obverse zoom in view



Reverse side



Reverse zoom in view



Finally the edge there are 27 fleur de lis, only concern doesn't look well defined.



Thanks and regards

*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
17589 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2020  8:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are lots of other European crown sized silver coins of .900 silver, and 25 grams weight, of around the same vintage as the coin pictured.
Krause World Coin Catalog 1800-1900 or NGC World coin Values website should give you good information to choose an equivalent coin to look for, that you may have in your collection.

If you have similar, and of exactly the same diameter, do a comparative ping tone test against this coin, to give good indication for the correct .900 silver alloy for the 5 Pesetas in question.
Valued Member
Singapore
51 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2020  3:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coins Mania to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@sel_691

It's 3am in SG just awoke but feel the need of courtesy to reply.

Previous forum I posted for authentication of a 5 Francs 1832 coin which has the same weight and dimensions. Using a free Bullion test app, the fundamental resonance is 4478Hz and next is 9969Hz.

This 5 Pesetas has a peak @ 4371Hz and next 9840Hz.

All other few similar crown size coins I have have peaks about 4300Hz to 4500Hz range and much smaller peak between 9800Hz to 10200Hz.

Is that conclusive enough? Like to hear from others too!

Thanks and Best regards
Pillar of the Community
United States
1090 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2020  5:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Regarding a ping test for authenticity: I have authentic and counterfeit coins made of silver combined with whatever other metals are in the alloy.
In one case a genuine siver coin rings at about 10khz and so does the counterfeit.
BUT- The difference is "duration". The good rings longer and the bad quits in half the time.
So if doing a ping test, don't focus on the center frequency and harmonics alone, but the time duration as well.
Duration can be affected by the manner in which the coin is supported.
I really don't use a ping test to determine much of anything. It only adds interest among the notes in my evaluation and is just one aspect of it as I document the subject coins.
I have better ways to determine if it's good coin silver or not.
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
17589 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2020  6:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The best advantage of the ping test is that it doesn't cost anything to perform, and there is no equipment or instruments needed.
Ping tone testing, by itself, can be inconclusive, but it also can be can be useful in supplying supporting evidence.
That's why other corroborative testing should be done, if at all possible.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1090 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2020  10:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very true and I didn't think of how it can be useful at a coin show. I bought some Mexican 2 peso coins and more at a coin show and "pinged" then back at my table.
Along with my small digital scale along with my N-52 magnet, I found the coins not to be suspect. And as it turned out they were ok. In another case I bought a couple Chinese Dollar coins and they tested the same. The seller gave then to me because "they didn't look right". I forced him to accept one dollar bill for each. Told him I really don't think they are fake at all. Back at the shop it turns out they were in fact good coins.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5035 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2020  11:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Spanish 5 Peseta series was targeted by numerous counterfeiters. Base metal copies were made as well as debased silver types, but it was also copied in full weight correct assay silver for many years. This was because the coins contained only about half the silver of a fully intrinsic coin. These copies will defeat every test that has been proposed. These coins are usually referred to a "Made in Seville" types as I recall. They were and still are VERY common. Millions were made and circulated because they matched genuine coins and passed most common tests.

The best way to ID these pieces was covered in Coin World years ago. One very key tells is the Keystone over the doorway in the castle. If the stone directly above the door is NOT shaped like a keystone the coin is a counterfeit. On some of these coins the 5 in the denomination is improperly formed as is the S.

Here is a thread about this topic http://goccf.com/t/273886

There are some photos there that illustrate the fakes.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1090 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2020  02:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is the fake that I have simulating the OP post as well as including the castle keystone.
Specific gravity is in line with Copper/nickel and far away from coin silver.
It also fails the N-52 test and is 17% low weight.
My picture has been adjusted for clarity.





Pillar of the Community
United States
5035 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2020  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Albert The coin you posted is not what I would call a Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit variety. It is a Numismatic Forgery. The fact that it uses more modern technologies means it could not possibly have been produced before 1900 or even before 1950.

The coin is a base metal copy made using centrifugal casting methods. The mold itself was copied from a genuine coin using a more recent technique than casting. I suspect possible electrotyping or computer assisted engraving of a master used to impress mold materials.

Look at the coin's obverse and reverse dies. There are traces of a double level raised rim on both sides of the coin. The outer ring appears to be higher than the inner ring on both sides and shows little to no wear. These two level rims can occur on genuine coins but not on both sides.

Notice the severe loss of detail around the perimeter of the King's head in particular the forehead and the rear of his head near LA. There is a complete loss of transitional detail between the portrait and the fields of the coin. The same thing happened to the S in Dios and to the Pillars on the reverse.

Next note the texture of the upper surface of the letters - in particular look at the texture of the X in the King's numeral. That pocked mark surface is typical of the recessed area of a forged die or mold which can not be polished before the die/mold is placed in production. On genuine dies made from hubs the hub itself is polished making the upper surface of the letters smooth.

Finally there are numerous tiny raised lumps throughout on both sides of the coin that are suspect - note in particular at the top of the inside of the G in LA G. DE on the obverse. There is a corresponding loss of continuity in straight line segments like the bases of the Pillars on the reverse.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1090 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2020  11:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are some details around the coin that swamperbob points out and the poorly defined crown on the left side compared to the right:









Valued Member
Singapore
51 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2020  06:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coins Mania to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, it is really technical! I have to take time to understand. Well, does my coin looks okay ? Thanks in advance.
Valued Member
Singapore
51 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2020  06:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coins Mania to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I took the dive as I can see 18 and 87 in the Left and right 6 pointed stars respectively.



If it is a counterfeit, I would go back for a refund or an exchange
Valued Member
Singapore
51 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2020  11:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coins Mania to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
More close up photo focus as best on the castle...



Hope that provide clue as to the genuineness of the coin.
Valued Member
Spain
120 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2020  11:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add txabs to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi @Swamperbob

There has been a lot of contemporary counterfeits on 5 pesetas coins. But only the last ones are called "Sevillanos" (one of the first forgeries workshops discovered were near Seville, not all of them were struck there)

The problem with the "Sevillanos" was that in addition to having a very good art, difficult to differentiate from an authentic crown... they were minted with a silver law of 90%, exactly the same as authentic coins.

Starting in 1894, the silver needed to make a coin cost about 3.5 pesetas, so that counterfeiters could obtain financial gain without forgering the composition.

I don't know what are you seeing wrong with the 1885*87 coin of the picture, @Coins Mania. It is a very common coin, with normal wear, right weight and right art. It will cost about bullion value, there are millions of 85*87 5 pesetas coins, it does not seems suspect to me.

1881 is a key date, you don't need to know weight or XRF to know it is a modern counterfeit

Regards!!... and sorry for my english :)
Pillar of the Community
United States
1090 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2020  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't like to claim that an OP coin is genuine or not since I've been burned before. I may if it's blatently obvious, but pictures alone can fool. I posted my pics that follow along swamperbob's comments so the OP may see their coin being much more like a genuine coin and much unlike a known fake.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5035 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2020  5:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
txabs I was not saying the 1885 coin was counterfeit. What I was saying is that the tests suggested by the various commentators were of no value when dealing with the 5 Pesetas of that era.

I was pointing out that the very well made silver copies often referred to as from Seville could NOT BE DETECTED using the ping test.

All 90% silver coins have the same ping characteristics including frequency and duration. So the best ping test tells you nothing except the silver content is correct.

In the same way, weight will tell you nothing if a silver counterfeit is compared with a silver original. The physical characteristics are the same.

Finally the N-52 magnet test is of no use to diagnose a silver counterfeit - they have the same magnetic qualities.

I was suggesting a close look at the details of the coin might be advantageous and provide clues to determine if it was real or not. That is why I suggested looking at the old thread.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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