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Is This A "Blacksmith" Silver 8 Reales?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 476Next Topic  
Valued Member
Canada
68 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2020  1:14 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello Everyone: This weighs 27.43 grams, and has a diameter of 37.1mm. The dies are hand engraved (as is the edging device) and it's made from low-grade silver. It was sold as "Possibly Durango mint, though nothing like the portrait is in Calico". This reminds me of a Blacksmith token in execution. We had a similar 1819-Zs 2R, which was an obvious Blacksmith endeavor. Turned out to be Unique and was added to a book on the subject...


Pillar of the Community
United States
1539 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2020  6:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Heritage (the coin was in their most recent World weekly sale) was correct in their educated guess. It is one of the several different varieties of "proper bust" seen out of Durango for the dates 1812 and 1813. ALL the Durango emissions of these years are incredibly crudely styled and also usually very poorly executed - all of that is on display here.

The hedging description of "...though nothing like the portrait is in Calico" seems to have indeed done the trick of dangling an previously unknown type.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.ht...usd&company=
Valued Member
Canada
68 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2020  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What was the fineness of Silver used?
Pillar of the Community
United States
5043 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2020  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
whatdowehavehere I have no great objection to referring to coins such as this as "Blacksmith" types, but I do not see it as a valuable description.

Many different counterfeits were struck from crudely engraved dies that were made to look worn. It could help a counterfeit to be accepted at the weight value, in particular. A merchant weighing the coin might be convinced by his greed to accept the coin believing it to be overweight and a bargain.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
Canada
68 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2020  6:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What "strikes" me is the total absence of any lettering. Didn't wear off...
Valued Member
Canada
68 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2020  6:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Having handled a number of Blacksmith tokens, I find the similarities very interesting-especially the absence of any lettering. If you'll notice, the counterfeiter was clever and privy-marked the obverse: a large dot seen at the upper diagonal left of the ear, in the hair; and reverse: the broken Lions' tails.
Edited by whatdowehavehere
10/30/2020 7:12 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
5043 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2020  8:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Identifying markers have long been used by counterfeiters to mark their work so as not to accept them in trade. I don't think that is an exclusive trait of "balcksmith groups". In fact two of the most common counterfeit types illustrated in Riddell's 1845 book have identifying markers yet these were both large factory productions using many very complete and accurately copies dies. The Riddell # 221 and 223 varieties use an eagle with an open knuckle on the foot grasping the cactus. The Riddell 365 and 371 have one ray that is misplaced in relation to the D and the eagle on some lacks a crest entirely. I believe earlier threads have already covered these shared traits visible from MS to AG.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
Canada
68 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2020  10:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Fact is, is that this was struck "hammer-and-anvil", with no lettering of the dies. The edge is also hand-reeded (and the counterfeiter became testy doing this, and you can see where he tailed-off...). The reverse "die" also struck the flan too uncentered to have been in a dieworks in the conventional sense-it would have cracked
Edited by whatdowehavehere
11/10/2020 10:28 pm
Valued Member
Canada
68 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2020  10:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Identifying markers have long been used by counterfeiters to mark their work so as not to accept them in trade. I don't think that is an exclusive trait of "balcksmith groups". In fact two of the most common counterfeit types illustrated in Riddell's 1845 book have identifying markers yet these were both large factory productions using many very complete and accurately copies dies. The Riddell # 221 and 223 varieties use an eagle with an open knuckle on the foot grasping the cactus. The Riddell 365 and 371 have one ray that is misplaced in relation to the D and the eagle on some lacks a crest entirely..."

No, I am certainly not implying that at all; it's just a clever thing... plus, as you know, there IS a connection between Canadian Blacksmiths and Mexican coinage: the "Mexican Sou", ca.1850's, which sides nicely with this attempt, timewise
Edited by whatdowehavehere
11/11/2020 07:34 am
Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
789 Posts
 Posted 11/19/2020  3:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great looking early Durango piece.
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