Is This A "blacksmith" Silver 8 Reales?

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Author	Replies: 9 / Views: 2,226
whatdowehavehere Valued Member Canada 235 Posts	Posted 10/30/2020 1:14 pm Hello Everyone: This weighs 27.43 grams, and has a diameter of 37.1mm. The dies are hand engraved (as is the edging device) and it's made from low-grade silver. It was sold as "Possibly Durango mint, though nothing like the portrait is in Calico". This reminds me of a Blacksmith token in execution. We had a similar 1819-Zs 2R, which was an obvious Blacksmith endeavor. Turned out to be Unique and was added to a book on the subject... Report this Post to the Staff

realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 10/30/2020 6:03 pm Heritage (the coin was in their most recent World weekly sale) was correct in their educated guess. It is one of the several different varieties of "proper bust" seen out of Durango for the dates 1812 and 1813. ALL the Durango emissions of these years are incredibly crudely styled and also usually very poorly executed - all of that is on display here. The hedging description of "...though nothing like the portrait is in Calico" seems to have indeed done the trick of dangling an previously unknown type. https://www.acsearch.info/search.ht...usd&company= Report this Post to the Staff
whatdowehavehere Valued Member Canada 235 Posts	Posted 10/30/2020 6:36 pm What was the fineness of Silver used? Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 10/30/2020 6:36 pm whatdowehavehere I have no great objection to referring to coins such as this as "Blacksmith" types, but I do not see it as a valuable description. Many different counterfeits were struck from crudely engraved dies that were made to look worn. It could help a counterfeit to be accepted at the weight value, in particular. A merchant weighing the coin might be convinced by his greed to accept the coin believing it to be overweight and a bargain. Report this Post to the Staff
whatdowehavehere Valued Member Canada 235 Posts	Posted 10/30/2020 6:38 pm What "strikes" me is the total absence of any lettering. Didn't wear off... Report this Post to the Staff
whatdowehavehere Valued Member Canada 235 Posts	Posted 10/30/2020 6:46 pm Having handled a number of Blacksmith tokens, I find the similarities very interesting-especially the absence of any lettering. If you'll notice, the counterfeiter was clever and privy-marked the obverse: a large dot seen at the upper diagonal left of the ear, in the hair; and reverse: the broken Lions' tails. Edited by whatdowehavehere 10/30/2020 7:12 pm Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 11/06/2020 8:44 pm Identifying markers have long been used by counterfeiters to mark their work so as not to accept them in trade. I don't think that is an exclusive trait of "balcksmith groups". In fact two of the most common counterfeit types illustrated in Riddell's 1845 book have identifying markers yet these were both large factory productions using many very complete and accurately copies dies. The Riddell # 221 and 223 varieties use an eagle with an open knuckle on the foot grasping the cactus. The Riddell 365 and 371 have one ray that is misplaced in relation to the D and the eagle on some lacks a crest entirely. I believe earlier threads have already covered these shared traits visible from MS to AG. Report this Post to the Staff
whatdowehavehere Valued Member Canada 235 Posts	Posted 11/10/2020 10:11 pm The Fact is, is that this was struck "hammer-and-anvil", with no lettering of the dies. The edge is also hand-reeded (and the counterfeiter became testy doing this, and you can see where he tailed-off...). The reverse "die" also struck the flan too uncentered to have been in a dieworks in the conventional sense-it would have cracked Edited by whatdowehavehere 11/10/2020 10:28 pm Report this Post to the Staff
whatdowehavehere Valued Member Canada 235 Posts	Posted 11/10/2020 10:37 pm "Identifying markers have long been used by counterfeiters to mark their work so as not to accept them in trade. I don't think that is an exclusive trait of "balcksmith groups". In fact two of the most common counterfeit types illustrated in Riddell's 1845 book have identifying markers yet these were both large factory productions using many very complete and accurately copies dies. The Riddell # 221 and 223 varieties use an eagle with an open knuckle on the foot grasping the cactus. The Riddell 365 and 371 have one ray that is misplaced in relation to the D and the eagle on some lacks a crest entirely..." No, I am certainly not implying that at all; it's just a clever thing... plus, as you know, there IS a connection between Canadian Blacksmiths and Mexican coinage: the "Mexican Sou", ca.1850's, which sides nicely with this attempt, timewise Edited by whatdowehavehere 11/11/2020 07:34 am Report this Post to the Staff
TwoKopeiki Pillar of the Community Czech Republic 803 Posts	Posted 11/19/2020 3:57 pm Great looking early Durango piece. Report this Post to the Staff
	Replies: 9 / Views: 2,226

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Is This A "Blacksmith" Silver 8 Reales?