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What Are My Options With An 1840 Counterfeit Mexico 8 Reales?

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New Member

United States
7 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2020  8:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Stevearino to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I recently won an auction lot of 13 silver foreign coins. There were no close-up photos available. Upon receiving the coins all appeared legitimate except the 1840 8 reales. The color was off. I posted the coin on CoinTalk and it wasn't long before my suspicions were confirmed. It is actually a quite poorly made counterfeit.

The auction house offered to buy back the entire lot, but I declined their offer (there are numerous other coins in the lot I was glad to obtain). Now, I'm wondering what my options are:

Is it legal to sell a foreign counterfeit coin NOT marked copy?

I have no idea if it is a contemporary counterfeit or not. Because of the wear I suspect it might be.

I'm open to any suggestions. Thanks, in advance,
Steve
Valued Member
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United States
124 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2020  9:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kcm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No! It is not legal to sell a counterfeit ANYTHING while representing it as genuine. Your options are: Behave as though you were a moral human being, or behave like one so amoral as to need to ask such a question.

Krevin
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United States
4183 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2020  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply



Quote:
Is it legal to sell a foreign counterfeit coin NOT marked copy?


Of course! It's the United States of America where caveat emptor is more or less the rule of law.

I think @Kcm may have mis-read your question. If you clearly represent that this is not a genuine coin, then it's "no harm, no foul." You must, however, follow the rules of whichever selling platform you use.
Edited by tdziemia
11/22/2020 9:47 pm
New Member
Mexico
3 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2020  10:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lion Alchemist to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here in Mexico sell old fake coins it is not illegal as long as it is specified that it is a fake coin, in fact there is a small circle of collectors of old fake coins. we called these kind of coins "Falsa de Epoca". Best regards.
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United States
893 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  12:56 am  Show Profile   Check Collects82's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm no lawyer or cop... but I see coins pop up on the marketplaces here and there. The older stuff is often labelled as "contemporary counterfeit" and the seller is upfront as to what is being sold. There is a market for these and when the seller is upfront, I don't see much complaining about it. There is a market and collector base that specializes in these. So I'm not sure if the old contemporary stuff is legal to sell, however it does all the time and just be transparent and upfront if you go down that path.
My hoard of '82s is up to 204! 218 BC x 1, 118 BC x 3, 18 BC x 1, 82 x 1, 182 x 1, 282 x 2, 382 x 1, 582 x 2, 682 x 1, 782 x 2, 882 x 1, 982 x 4, 1082 x 1 1182 x 8, 1282 x 2, 1382 x 1, 1482 x 5, 1582 x 13, 1682 x 15, 1782 x 57, 1882 x 49, 1982 x 33
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United States
1096 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  02:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Please post your pictures here and let swamperbob comment on your coin -- he is an expert on Mexico 8 reales contemporary counterfeits.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1543 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  03:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—



For it to be a crime you have to, know and have intent to defraud.

The Collectible Coin Protection Act made it illegal to Knowingly sell in unmarked replicas but they did offer to refund you.
Edited by Gincoin43
11/23/2020 03:36 am
New Member
United States
7 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  5:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Stevearino to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdziemia, thank you for correctly interpreting the intent of my first-ever post on CCF. @Kcm, sir, I am disappointed by your implication that I am either ignorant and/or amoral. I am a retired Lutheran pastor and try to live by the Golden Rule. THAT is why I asked the question, and, as subsequent replies indicate, it IS possible to sell a counterfeit in certain situations.

I'm having some trouble navigating CCF. I'd like to post photos of the counterfeit in question. Would anyone be willing to point me in the right direction?

Thanks all, even you, Krevin ( since you don't know me personally I won't take it personally and will assume you were only trying to keep a shyster from cheating someone),

Steve

New Member
United States
7 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  5:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Stevearino to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow. Have I ever done a lot of sighing...have read the tutorials about posting images, but I have to tell you. This old Grampa is having a tough time.

Steve
Pillar of the Community
United States
1543 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  6:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It isn't easy, if your file is too big you can use the Optimizer.
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United States
3485 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2020  9:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, dude, since it's a least partly my fault you are here... photos grabbed, cropped and resized:








-----Burton
46 year / Life ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC
Owned by four cats and a wife of 35 years (joined 1983)
New Member
United States
7 Posts
 Posted 11/25/2020  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Stevearino to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, Burton! You're a good man. Is it just me or is this site a lot more difficult to maneuver through than CT?

Let's hope @swamperbob will come out of the swamp long enough to take a peek at the images.

Thanks, again,

Steve
Pillar of the Community
United States
1560 Posts
 Posted 11/26/2020  12:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lovely crude contemporary counterfeit of an 1840Go 8R in an atypically nice state of presentation for these (not much wear, no bad cancellation marks)... and NOT the typical "G without the o" Guanajuato imitation I was expecting when you said 1840.
New Member
United States
7 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2020  09:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Stevearino to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, @realeswatcher, for your opinion. I appreciate it. I'm a bit gun-shy now about the other 12 coins in the lot I purchased. They don't appear counterfeit, but as a precaution I'm going to try to post photos of the 1796 4 reales. I just reread the tutorial, and will give it a college

OK, insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. I've had the first photo in the "Optimizer" many times, have oriented it correctly, have cropped it to the bare image, have adjusted the width to 750 giving 213 kb. When I take the next step to upload the image I get the message "file must be under 300..."

I'm on a MacBook Pro. Anyone have suggestions as to the piece I'm missing?

Steve
Pillar of the Community
United States
1543 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2020  10:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You need to save the edited picture to your device and then upload.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5072 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2020  5:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Stevearino Your coin is in fact a very collectable version of a Gunajuato Counterfeit. These were made primarily in the US before the Civil War and were common in commerce at the time.

It is not listed in J.L. Riddell's book but I intend to list it if I live long enough to publish an update. I'm my own collection I have at least 6 coins struck from the same dies and onlt one in better shape than yours.

COINS LIKE THIS ARE ABSOLUTELY LEGAL TO OWN AND COLLECT. That has been fully verified on numerous occasions in the past few years.

Since eBay dissolved the Coin Watch Committee they are also permissable coins to sell on eBay. They do not violate the let the buyer beware issue and provided you refer to them as "non-regal" there is no chance of fraud being claimed.

These are in a completely different class than the recently made Numismatic Forgeries which are essentially worthless junk. Your coin is worth more than $50 possibly more than $100 and should not under any circumstances be marked "COPY". The HPA has nothing to do with CCC coins made over 150 years ago. They are not what the HPA was designed for at all.

Post your coin as a "Contemporary non-regal" coin and that is more than enough warning. It will also signal the counterfeit coin collectors as to what it is. This one should sell well. I personally know of about 200 collectors who are in this category.

I would also venture to guess that in this grade your Counterfeit (Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit - or CCC is the correct name) is worth MORE than a genuine example with the same damage. It is also far scarcer than a genuine coin.

Good luck with it. Any questions - do not hesitate to ask. Contact me anytime regarding issues like this.

I can be contacted directly at "swamperbob22@aol.com"
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Edited by swamperbob
11/27/2020 5:34 pm
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