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How Do TPGs Treat These: Looks MS Wear-Wise But...cleaned?

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 Posted 01/15/2021  2:19 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add one_fine_dime to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Neat die cracks and very limited wear (if any), but clearly not an MS or AU coin based on surfaces.

Can folks confirm for me, is this just a basic "details cleaned" type of designation. I don't really want to collect problem coins (thanks coinfrog), so just curious how "problematic" this coin would be considered.
My avatar is from the reverse of the US 1987 Constitution Silver Dollar and features 13 diverse people intended to represent the wide cultural and social spectrum of the United States.
>>> E Pluribus Unum (Out of Many, One) - the de facto motto of the United States <<<
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14869 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2021  2:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What makes you say it is cleaned ? According to your photos I don't see a cleaned coin . I do see a nice AU-UNC FSB Mercury dime .
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 Posted 01/15/2021  2:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add one_fine_dime to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I totally agree T-BOP, no hairlines or anything. But zero luster! To me, this doesn't have the look of a typical TPG certified AU-MS coin at all because it is wholly lackluster - that's why I suggested they would deem it cleaned.
So you're thinkin this would likely straight grade with a TPG then?
My avatar is from the reverse of the US 1987 Constitution Silver Dollar and features 13 diverse people intended to represent the wide cultural and social spectrum of the United States.
>>> E Pluribus Unum (Out of Many, One) - the de facto motto of the United States <<<
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 Posted 01/15/2021  2:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bad lighting can dull coin surface and change color, the coin is likely dark in appearance.

I wouldn't send this in for grading even with FB in current state.

The Mercury Dimes Specialist!
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566 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2021  3:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add one_fine_dime to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
that's helpful macmercury - but would you consider this a "problem coin" (based on the available photos)?
My avatar is from the reverse of the US 1987 Constitution Silver Dollar and features 13 diverse people intended to represent the wide cultural and social spectrum of the United States.
>>> E Pluribus Unum (Out of Many, One) - the de facto motto of the United States <<<
Edited by one_fine_dime
01/15/2021 7:34 pm
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 Posted 01/15/2021  5:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are these your in hand photos or sellers pics?

I'd say from these you can't really tell if it's a problem coin or not. Luster is very much subdued, very flat in appearance, but as mentioned, photography can hide a lot. If the price were right and there is a return policy, I'd take a change. I'm a fan of the die cracks and FB on this one!

If these are in hand pics, does this accurately represent the coin?

Edit for grammar
Edited by Ty2020b
01/15/2021 7:59 pm
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 Posted 01/15/2021  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd like to see the natural colors of this coin - looks bluish gray and kind of dead here.
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 Posted 01/15/2021  7:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add one_fine_dime to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't own this coin, these are seller photos. seller does not accept returns, it's yet to be seen if price is right. "I'm a fan of the die cracks and FB on this one!" No doubt! That's what interested me as well. Being seemingly lackluster though kind of makes it a real odd looking coin.

seller's description: Dark even natural tone, obverse sharp, reverse triple top split bands, prominent die failure.

here's another seller photo

My avatar is from the reverse of the US 1987 Constitution Silver Dollar and features 13 diverse people intended to represent the wide cultural and social spectrum of the United States.
>>> E Pluribus Unum (Out of Many, One) - the de facto motto of the United States <<<
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 Posted 01/15/2021  8:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It probably lived in someone pocket for a while, I would save my money for a better one, if seller doesn't offer return.

What is the sell price if you don't mind me asking?

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 Posted 01/15/2021  8:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From the photos that I'm looking at the coin is not MS , but AU-58 seems right on . I still don't think it's cleaned , just somehow lost it's luster in the 101 years since it's been born .
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 Posted 01/15/2021  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with T-Bop on AU58, whether it Details or not . I probably wouldn't take a chance either without the ability to return. If the seller is describing FSB, they're probably asking a premium. The problem with this lies in the fact that this looks to be an AU example and the FSB is irrelevant given the fact the designation only applies to MS examples.

Bottom line, I wouldn't touch it unless it's dirt cheap. My 2 cents
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 Posted 01/15/2021  9:37 pm  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Something doesn't look right about this coin ?
Cannot put my finger on it , just looks off!
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 Posted 01/15/2021  9:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add one_fine_dime to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great discussion going here.

My immediate interest was really wondering how folks thought the TPGs would handle such a coin. I don't recall seeing one like this in a slab before, so I'm not sure. Grading standards do indicate AU requires luster; so it seems folks are making a judgement of AU-58 based on wear alone, right?. But I don't believe the TPGs consider wear alone at this grade. PCGS says: "virtually full luster" (AU-58); "considerable luster remains (AU-55); "some luster remains" (AU-53); and "bits of luster remain" (AU-50). Even "a bit of luster may still be visible in protected areas (XF-45).

So I don't know if PCGS or NGC would knock it down to XF-45 or 'details' it or what. I wasn't really thinking I'd submit a coin like this per se, but as I'm learning to improve my skills, I'm trying to generally stay away from "problem" coins...and I think most agree that a "problem" coin is any coin that will not straight grade with PCGS or NGC (right?).


Quote:
What is the sell price if you don't mind me asking?
Well, current price is under $10 but that's pretty irrelevant cause it's an auction.


Quote:
If the seller is describing FSB, they're probably asking a premium. The problem with this lies in the fact that this looks to be an AU example and the FSB is irrelevant given the fact the designation only applies to MS examples.
They're not asking a premium (see above). Yes, FSB is designated only in MS by the TPGs, however collectors certainly may pay a premium for FSB below MS. At one point I asked both PCGS and NGC why they only designate "FB" at MS60 and above and never received an answer, it makes zero numismatic or logical sense to me at all. I've seen NGC holders at AU-58 with "FB" and brought this to their attention. I asked do they in fact designate "FB" below MS60 and they replied: "I have been told that we do not but a few have gone out that way but in general we do not." (pretty ridiculous answer)

If you're interested, this was one certified "FB" example I had found at AU-58:
https://www.NGCcoin.com/certlookup/1884434-015/58/


Quote:
I wouldn't touch it unless it's dirt cheap
yeah, kind of my thinking too. Like I could see paying maybe XF45 greysheet ($23) or thereabouts
My avatar is from the reverse of the US 1987 Constitution Silver Dollar and features 13 diverse people intended to represent the wide cultural and social spectrum of the United States.
>>> E Pluribus Unum (Out of Many, One) - the de facto motto of the United States <<<
Edited by one_fine_dime
01/15/2021 9:38 pm
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 Posted 01/15/2021  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaobler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Apparent absence of luster and "no return" would kill my interest. The sharp detail and dark even color gives an odd look. Are we sure this is a genuine coin?

FYI, PCGS does certify AU Standing Liberty quarters as FH (full head) if the strike is sharp enough. They might offer FB for sharply-struck AU dimes.
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 Posted 01/15/2021  11:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The toning does look a bit too consistent. And looking at the close up pic again, is that pitting along the rim?
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 Posted 01/15/2021  11:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add one_fine_dime to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
They might offer FB for sharply-struck AU dimes.
This states, "Note: PCGS may designate in grades of 60 and higher"
https://www.PCGS.com/grades#gradeFB
My avatar is from the reverse of the US 1987 Constitution Silver Dollar and features 13 diverse people intended to represent the wide cultural and social spectrum of the United States.
>>> E Pluribus Unum (Out of Many, One) - the de facto motto of the United States <<<
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