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Newbie Topic: Incuse Coins

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 394Next Topic  
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 Posted 01/27/2021  1:08 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Nells250 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
So I decided my first Canadian Maple Leaf would be a 2018 "incuse" version. I liked the different look online, and am glad I made the decision.

But the word "incuse" still bothers me.

According to the forum info:
The intaglio design used on Indian Head quarter eagles and half eagles. These coins were struck from dies which had fields recessed, so that the devices - the areas usually raised - were recessed on the coins themselves. This was an experiment to try to deter counterfeiting and improve wearing quality.

Wiki says:
Part of the coin's design that has been impressed below the surface (intaglio). Not as popular as the "relief" method due to difficulty striking clearly and shorter lifespan of dies.

Coming from stamps, "intaglio" means stamps printed from engraved dies, with a raised "feel" to the ink on the stamp. Sooooo, I looked that one up as well:
Strictly speaking, engraving means carving in intaglio (with the design cut into the flat background of the stone), but relief carvings (with the design projecting out of the background as in nearly all cameos) are also covered by the term.

Now, I was thinking that an incuse coin was something unique and different. BUT then read that those snazzy old US gold Indians are incuse coins!

What else do new coiners need to know about INCUSE COINS?
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 Posted 01/27/2021  1:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hope you get some real good answers since I never heard of that before.
just carl
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 Posted 01/27/2021  1:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Nells250 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


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 Posted 01/27/2021  1:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
incuse(Noun)

an impression hammered or pressed (onto a coin)

An incuse coin differs radically from a traditional coin. Traditional coins have raised design devices, meaning the details of the design--say the head of a President--will appear on top of the fields of the coin. The designs on incuse coins are structured differently: the fields are the highest point on the coin, and the devices or design details are struck "incused," or indented, below the fields. Incuse coins have been made and used in commerce dating back to 600 B.C. in Greece and Italy.
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 Posted 01/27/2021  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think we are confusing a reverse proof with incuse. Way different/
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 Posted 01/27/2021  5:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From the CCF Numismatic Glossary

incuse design
The intaglio design used on Indian Head quarter eagles and half eagles. These coins were struck from dies which had fields recessed, so that the devices - the areas usually raised - were recessed on the coins themselves. This was an experiment to try to deter counterfeiting and improve wearing quality.
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 Posted 01/27/2021  5:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@TNG: Isn't that what I posted just above?

Here, let me help:


Quote:
The designs on incuse coins are structured differently: the fields are the highest point on the coin, and the devices or design details are struck "incused," or indented, below the fields.


Nothing there said or implied to be confused with a reverse proof coin.
Incusing is not rev proofing at all.
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Edited by Dearborn
01/27/2021 6:00 pm
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 Posted 01/27/2021  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looked to me that Nells250's second post showed a reverse proof or proof-like silver 2018 Canada 5 dollar Maple leaf. I was thinking that Nells250 had mistaken the finish for incuse.
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 Posted 01/28/2021  11:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bond632 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They are different and unique, as probably 99.999 % of coins produced do not have incused devices.

One would have to think that there would be a lot more die chips in the devices with this type of production as well, leading to the shorter lifespan of dies alluded to by Wiki.
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 Posted 01/28/2021  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Nells250 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NOPE... incuse alright... when I saw the sales listing I had to look it up because I thought it was indeed a reverse proof. Once I learned a little about it, I decided my one Canadian silver coin had to be a little "different".

Do such coins wear totally different than "normal" ones? MUST!

Edited by Nells250
01/28/2021 5:08 pm
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 Posted 01/28/2021  5:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is a problem with understanding what various terms mean.

Intaglio: Intaglio is a printing method done by engraving lines into the printing plate, inking it, and then forcing the paper against the plate under pressure so that it picks up the ink from the plate resulting in raised lines on the finished printing. This really has nothing to do with coinage.

Incuse: An image is sunk INTO the surface so that what would have been the highest portions of the image are now the DEEPEST portions of the finished image. In coinage the Hub is in relief and after it is forced against the die blank the DIE is incuse. If you were to make a hub with everything reversed (bust, lettering etc) and then use that hub to strike a coin the result would be an incuse coin. Think of an early stage full brockage error, but with the lettering the right way and not reversed. In some coins there are a combination of raised and incuse features, especially lettering. On the ATB Quarters the designs are raised but the lettering around the rim is incuse. On the shield cent most of the design is raised, but E PLURIBUS UNUM is incuse.

The Indian head quarter and half eagles are neither of these. It is what is properly (but rarely) termed as sunken relief. The design features are all in normal relief, but the whole feature is "set into" the coin so that the highest parts of the design is flush or "at the same level" as the surrounding fields.
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 Posted 01/28/2021  8:18 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Swedish 1, 2, and 5 ore bronze coins 1951-1974 are also like this, but with a rim. Yes, they do wear differently and grading is an interesting exercise. I started collecting these series of coins because of that.



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 Posted 01/28/2021  10:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The BLP Quarter and Half Eagle coins are the most complete form of what an incuse design looks like.
As a type coin, an example should be one of the first to be included in an incuse or U.S. type collection.

How about the rare Australian 'incuse flag' 50 Cents coin variety?
Google Images to see.

Other incuse coins:
Russia bronze Kopecs 1867 to 1900,
Copper Pennies of the British Soho Mint 1797.
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 Posted 01/30/2021  5:47 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As to grading them the fields are the high points now, so grading from a photograph is problematic at best, especially with high AU coins. One really needs to have the coin in hand and to rotate it under a lamp to see wear patterns. While true with all coin types, I find it matters even more on incuse struck designs like the Pratt US gold Indian coinage.

As condor101 so eloquently described the Pratt gold coins are more of a sunken design making parts of the Indian head and eagle also high points, or at least equal with the fields.
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Edited by westcoin
01/30/2021 5:49 pm
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 Posted 01/31/2021  2:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Nells250 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Conder101 - aha, now see I read that the gold Indian WAS an "incuse". Of course, we all know the Internet can lie! ;-)
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