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Canadian Version Of NGC (Not Affiliated With NGC)

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 739Next Topic  
Valued Member
Canada
120 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2021  3:47 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add CanadaPennies19 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Found this website,

cNGCcoins.ca out of Alberta. Seems super sketchy.

They advertise that they grade generic copper and silver coins, so if you want your A-Mark rounds or Sunshine rounds graded, or your copper merry Christmas rounds graded, this is an option.

I emailed NGC to see if they're aware of this, I'm no lawyer but I couldn't just create a CPCGS (Canadian version) to compete.

They don't even grade world coins which is what NGC is known for.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1244 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2021  5:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add purelywasted to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks a little fishy, the 2021 bluenose PL 70 strikes me as odd, I might be wrong here, but I don't think the RCM has made a PL coin since 2010. I would assume this coin is a proof or specimen...
New Member
United States
24 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2021  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverCoinz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I called the number on the webpage to chat with the owner. He insisted that the error on the 2021 bluenose dollar which is labeled as a PL rather than as a PF was a clerical error. I then pointed out the error on the 2002 Golden Jubilee silver dollar which appears at the bottom of the landing page that is also attributed as a PL coin rather than a PF coin. Again, he insisted it was a clerical error. He said he will fix these two errors and assured me that all 3rd party graders make clerical error's. I pointed out that there are 6 example coins on his website and two of them are attributed incorrectly which does not instill confidence in potential clients. He told me he has 7 'numismatic certificates' and insisted he's an expert. I asked if he was affiliated with NGC and he is not. He told me he is trademarked and will have CNGC coins listed in one of the upcoming Heritage Coin sales. Grading is a complicated subject since its opinion based. I've done several tests with ICCS over the years where I send in the same coins over and over again and they consistently get different grades, sometimes wildly different (eg from an MS-64, to an AU-55, and then back to an MS-64). No grading company is perfect and they need to start somewhere but based on the conversation I had with the owner, I didnt feel he was an expert in coins or grading.
Valued Member
Canada
120 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2021  9:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CanadaPennies19 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I also wonder if he's using sonic sealed capsules like PCGS/NGC or the cheap Chinese snap closed ones that can be opened and exchanged out.
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Canada
9788 Posts
 Posted 06/10/2021  01:07 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
He told me he has 7 'numismatic certificates' and insisted he's an expert.


The first red flag is anyone who self-proclaims themselves as an "expert". I don't even consider myself an expert in my own field of research (my real job), despite graduate degrees, publishing books, and peer-reviewed papers. One thing I do understand - is that I am always learning, and the more I know - the more I realize that I don't know.

Anyhow, I digress. So unlike NGC and PCGS, do I take that statement to mean only one set of eyes will be doing all the grading? (I do realize that ICCS and CCCS also only have one grader examine the coins - which is why I prefer PCGS for more expensive coins).

I also see they intend to validate, attribute and grade errors. I wonder who the heck will be doing that? The Canadian error community is pretty small, and I can only count on one hand the number of error "experts" in Canada, who have a strong publication record of writing about errors, are members of CONECA, and that I would trust to do that job properly (and the 'Error man' of Canadian Coin News is definitely not one of them!). Even PCGS sends their more complicated errors out to an expert (Fred Weinberg) to ascertain the complex errors, or detect the clever homemade errors.
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1416 Posts
 Posted 06/11/2021  11:01 am  Show Profile   Check 47P7's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Checked TM Canada database
and their name is Trade-marked in Canada. did not check USA.
However, NGC is not TMd in Canada. check it out.
https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/...25&statmp=no
meaning they can legally use their name in Canada. I guess that is why the use .CA and not .com.- indicating Canada only.
However, I think one of 2 events will happen:
1 NGC will go to court for other than TM reasons, that will be secondary but will play a role. I would assume they would lose this court case if it goes there. for many reasons. The only thing it would show in a case that NGC neglected "forgot" to register their TM name NGC, a name known, and in business all over the world.
2 NGC would simply make it very clear to them what would happen IF.....make them a very private offer, or a demand to close down and turn all docs over to them. subject closed.
I was personally involved in a very similar case (not coins, but an interesting product I had. imagin when carsick kids are no longer car-sick and pregnant ladies are no longer suffering morning- sickness? And all without drugs! it did not go to court.)

Note: I am no expert nor a TM lawyer.
However, something looks a bit "fishy" here.
all-important compliance dates are the same?
usually, it takes many months for approval.
I am not saying what I am thinking. all I know is, I have applied for and received a few TM'S in my lifetime, but never on the same date. And never without any questions.

Edited by 47P7
06/11/2021 11:08 am
New Member
Canada
18 Posts
 Posted 06/11/2021  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Handi1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
and that I would trust to do that job properly (and the 'Error man' of Canadian Coin News is definitely not one of them!).

Will never retire - best laugh today thanks SPP
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2349 Posts
 Posted 06/11/2021  10:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is the owner of this Canadian grading company a dealer?

His email has a first name 'Larry' but no last name.
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Canada
9788 Posts
 Posted 06/14/2021  10:50 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you dig around in the cached files, you can find his name (I won't post it here). I did ask a number of higher profile dealers this past weekend if they had heard of him - and they all said 'no'.

I can't speak of someone's expertise without knowing them, but at least the collector and dealer networks knew of Brian Cornwall ( ICCS) and Louis Chevier ( CCCS), prior to those Canadian grading companies starting up.

"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Forum Dad
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United States
21352 Posts
 Posted 06/14/2021  11:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There was an APCGS in Australia that caused quite a stir too.
New Member
United States
24 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2021  5:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverCoinz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks like the website for http://www.CNGCcoins.ca has been taken down but their misattributed/misgraded coins are being sold by West Edmonton Coin + Stamp and Pirates Cove Collectibles in Edmonton. Buyer beware!

https://westedmontoncoinandstamp.co...tion=product

https://www.facebook.com/piratesstr...99957950293/
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1768 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2021  6:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not a very good picture for coins that demand high premium's good picture of the coins grade on holder? If I was selling something of that value I wouldn't be afraid to show a good blow up picture of the said coin.

I'm thinking its a scam with all three involved not good business of a coin store to be involved in selling low graded coins for more than they are worth buy someone unknown to the hobby grading them, with over graded grades I understand.
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