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1859 Large Cent Attribution Help

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Valued Member

United States
59 Posts
 Posted 11/29/2021  8:26 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MaximillianMike to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello Everyone,

I have this 1859 Large Cent and it does appear to have a 9 over 9 or 8? I am struggling to lock down the right attribution. It's a nice higher grade (I would say MS) but I am not well versed on identifying the right variety. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!




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New Zealand
1597 Posts
 Posted 11/29/2021  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fourmack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Have a go yourself to see if you can find it ---look for the rust on the neck
https://www.vickycents.com/index.html
Cheers Don

Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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Canada
952 Posts
 Posted 11/29/2021  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I looked on the Haxby site and I believe it's a early state PC59-17 which is an Obv. 5 paired with Rev. E7b. That may just be some crud in the nine.

Cheers, Bill
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952 Posts
 Posted 11/29/2021  10:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry fourmack, I was looking up and answering while you posted.
But I like your approach.

Cheers, Bill
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New Zealand
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 Posted 11/29/2021  10:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fourmack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
all good Bill -trying to hook in another potential vickie collector
Cheers Don

Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
Valued Member
United States
59 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2021  01:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MaximillianMike to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you both for the help. In reference to it being crud in the 9 I have looked at it under magnification and it's metal so I have always suspected this to be an overdate or repunched 9. I appreciate the link as I haven't seen that sight before.
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Canada
514 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2021  07:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinman91 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like a rp9 to me
RCNA Member

There's always two sides to the coin if you have the patience to see. -Kathryn Budig
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Canada
4131 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2021  08:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In all my 25+ years of searching I only found one like that and it never showed on Hax's site. I always thought that it was a badly damaged die that put all that metal inside the loop. It's not crud ... its bronze.

BTW, my Hax ID guide for the Reverses, using the "9" as the search doesn't even list an E-7b. I think the manual die punch of the 9 got chipped and made the inside loop and the tail like that. It's not crud, it's metal because mine looked the same as the OP.

Well, I just looked to see if I had any old photos of mine, and mine is a little different than the OP's, but it shows lots of metal inside the loop and tail from a damaged die. Here is mine:



The really BADDDDD news is that this coin I posted above is no longer in my possession. Out of the 100's of coins that I sent to Haxby 3-4 years ago to help with his beginning 1859 site, it turned up missing... just an 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 with the writing still on it, but no coin. It was somehow gone when I opened the package back here in Canada. I just thank heavens that I had photo'd the "9" into my files. I never photo'd the Obv or Rev, only the "9" because that was all I was/am interested in.
Edited by okiecoiner
11/30/2021 12:00 pm
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 Posted 11/30/2021  08:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I looked on the Haxby site and I believe it's a early state PC59-17 which is an Obv. 5 paired with Rev. E7b. That may just be some crud in the nine.


I agree with Hounddog Bill. Fourmack mentioned the rust on the neck which is a sure marker for Obverse 5. Without better photos, it does look like reverse E7b. A good clear photo of the stem to leaf 9 would probably confirm whether it is E7b or not.

Don, you are a good promoter of the hobby. Keep up the good work!
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United States
59 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2021  11:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MaximillianMike to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This has been one of the best responses to anything I have posted and its much appreciated. I spent a considerable amount of time last night working the Haxby site to the same conclusion using only my photos. I also agree with coinman91 and okiecoiner that something is going on with the 9. Perhaps a new variety? The obverse with the rust spots is defenitly #5 and the reverse from the current photos sure does look like E7b other than the 9. Anyhow I am a huge fan of doing my own attribution and I tend to get frustrated when I can't get it right, haha. Its a whirlwind when it comes to some third century bronze.. anyhow, I will get some clearer photos today and share them in a followup reply. Thanks everyone and have a great day.
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United States
302 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2021  2:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JHax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I certainly agree with Bill/Okie that his picture shows clearly raised metal inside the 9 to the left. Years ago, when I briefly had Bill's 1859s in hand, there was insufficient time to look carefully at everything and that one got missed. I photographed his interesting pieces I saw, but having not seen that particular piece, I did not photograph it. I definitely would have shot it if I'd seen it. And then it went missing. Unfortunate all the way around.

It is definitely not a 9 that I remember ever seeing, so it seems to be a new reverse, coupled with the known obverse, Obv. 5. It's another indication that there are still more things out there to find. The more people looking, the more likely it is that new things will surface. Some will be interesting and some will be "vanilla", but it's all fun! I think back to the old days in the 1970s-90s, when I was finding new dies and die pairs on a regular basis. Then, of course, I had no website and was shuffling through lists (which constantly had to be revised), drawings, misc. photos, etc. Boy, could I have used my website then!
Edited by JHax
11/30/2021 2:08 pm
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 Posted 11/30/2021  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To me, it seems that we've shown that there is a "new" reverse to mate with the established Obverse 5 & E-7b marriage. However, the OP's coin shows the E-7b with everything that should be there, but there's extra metal inside. It's my opinion that the hand punch chipped/broke during the hand-punching of the 9 for that die. Since it took 2-4 whacks with the hammer & punch, I think that the first coins struck by that die were perfect and acceptable. Maybe the die needed some repair due to the damage or maybe they pulled the die and whacked it one more time with the handpunch and it then chipped, allowing just a few more E-7c to escape with the chipped die. The initial die was good for a number of strikes and then mystery happened and whether it was due to a chipped die or chipped punch that modified the die later, we will never know.
Edited by okiecoiner
11/30/2021 3:57 pm
Valued Member
United States
59 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2021  8:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MaximillianMike to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Afternon. Don't give up on me but I just realized today that I no longer have my digital microscope. Not to worry I have one on the way from Amazon that will be here tomorrow. In the meantime here are some scanned images of the coin and a few shots from my phone.

I will get some better detailed photos tomorrow. Some things I noticed when taking more photographs is that leaf 8 has a die crack going across. I will include a photo of leaves 7-9 for clarification of reverse attribution.

I am not sure what all the raised bumps are when I zoom in but I am beginning to think this coin has been lacquered. I sure hope I am wrong but maybe someone else here can provide an opinion. If it is I am sure some acetone may get rid of it but would rather not go down that road. Anyways heres what I have tonight.

Scanned Obverse



Scanned Reverse



Leaves 9 - 7



Full Reverse



1859



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New Zealand
1597 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2021  8:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fourmack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
according to the die cracks its PC59-16 5 OBV -E7a REV
Cheers Don

Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
Valued Member
United States
59 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2021  10:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MaximillianMike to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fourmack

I agree it looks like 7a. The die crack at leaf 5 is prominent on my example if you look at the last photo I shared. I see that is a repunched 5 and 9 variety but doesn't look quite like what I see in mine. Clearer photos to come soon.

Jhax, thanks for the great reply. Hopefully with tomorrow's photos I can provide better diagnostics of the reverse and share those here.

Is the #5/E-7a common?
Edited by MaximillianMike
11/30/2021 10:33 pm
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New Zealand
1597 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2021  01:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fourmack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
E7a is R3 slightly rarer than E7b
Cheers Don

Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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