Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Rub Vs Wear, An Observation (Or My Opinion)

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 492Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
United States
601 Posts
 Posted 07/03/2022  1:51 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add KauaiHawaiiGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I've submitted about 300 silver dollars at the Classic and Colonial Forum, and many times a commenter has said that they have seen evidence of rub, and usually that means that (at least in their eyes) it cannot be in consideration for an uncirculated grade but must fall into an AU grade.

So this morning as I was looking over some of my silver dollars, it dawned on me, how many Morgans, even graded uncirculated ones always seem to show more marks and scuffs and chatter on the obverse than the reverse. And that made me think again about rub vs circulation wear.

Unless I'm mistaken, there is no way for a coin to circulate on only one side. Whether it's in a pocket with other coins, in a purse, taken out and put on the counter to pay for an item, then taken from the counter and placed in a till etc. All circulation is always two sided.

Now realizing that a coin must have wear on both sides if it has actually been in circulation, however brief that circulation may have been, how can a little rub on only one side be considered wear and not cabinet rub or album or roll friction, if the other side is clearly uncirculated? And don't misunderstand, I fully realize that especially in silver dollars, most of the grade is from the obverse, but I'm not saying the clearly uncirculated reverse should improve the final grade, only that it should be taken into consideration about whether or not what's seen on the obverse is rub or wear, and therefore whether the coin gets a high AU or a low MS.

Well that's what was on my mind this morning, and now I'd love to hear from you.
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
10427 Posts
 Posted 07/03/2022  2:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well how about this thought, if somebody gets an uncirculated coin, breaks it out and places it in a Whitman folder (the kind you just pop in the coin, the reverse is inaccessible but the obverse is. and get rubbed, hit, dinged, and such by a careless collector. Then someday takes it back out. What does he have? a obverse worn coin with a pristine reverse.
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
70347 Posts
 Posted 07/03/2022  5:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The large planes on the obverse (two open fields and the wide cheek) are invitations for skidding bag marks especially. The reverse has a more intricate design with devices that limit and deflect such skids. Just my amateur thinking.

Bedrock of the Community
United States
12576 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2022  08:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
speaking to morgans its a little more easy to determine the difference between wear, rub and strike. you forgot to include strike as for every year and mint we know the normal striking patterns. many make the mistake of confusing wear with strike so thats important and the reason I include it in almost all my comments on morgans.

both comments above are on point. I will add that the number of marks, scratches, digs etc have nothing to do with whether the coin is AU or MS. look at PCGS photograding for MS60-63 and you will see what I mean.

it takes years of looking at them to discern the difference and its much easier with a coin in hand as you can rotate it. this will allow you to see if the luster remains on the highest points of the devices and another reason you can get grades all over the place on CCF on some of them. we cant rotate the coin

i agree with your comment. you cant have one side MS and the other showing signs of circulation and there is a good chance in that instance you have cabinet rub rather than actual wear

keep posting coins. comments that are just grades dont help much lot to learn from but many here on CCF comment on why they graded it that way. thats where you can learn from and increase your knowledge base
Pillar of the Community
United States
2067 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2022  08:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A few designs, including the Morgan dollar, seem to always have the obverse uglier than the reverse. The Barber quarter and half dollar have the same circumstance. The obverse can be mid-AU, but the protective design of the reverse makes it appear BU. Hypothetically, you can have have circulation only on one side, but that is unheard of.

If I see a coin had lost luster at the high points, it is now AU. It doesn't matter of the rub is on the obverse or reverse. Rub is rub, and the original mint surfaces are no longer on the coin.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2355 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2022  10:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bump111 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
the reason I include it in almost all my comments on morgans.


I value the opinions of my fellow CCFers when I post images of Morgans here for review. I have noted the comments of @Panzaldi each time and value his assessments regarding individual characteristics of particular year/MM combinations. He has obviously looked at his share of specimens over the years. This is an example of the value to be found in this great community and has helped fine-tune my eye for these coins. Thank you to all who take the time to review our submittals! I can only hope that I will be of such value at some point in the future. As for now, I am an eager learner.
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
Moderator
Learn More...
Australia
14508 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2022  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Unless I'm mistaken, there is no way for a coin to circulate on only one side. Whether it's in a pocket with other coins, in a purse, taken out and put on the counter to pay for an item, then taken from the counter and placed in a till etc. All circulation is always two sided.

True in theory, but in practice, not all "circulation events" cause evenly distributed wear.

Consider this hypothetical scenario: a person (let's call them "the customer") obtains an uncirculated coin from the bank and takes it to a shop. They take it out of their purse and put it down on the counter to pay for merchandise. At this point, the coin is still technically uncirculated; it might have a few fingerprints from the customer and the bank teller, but fingerprints aren't considered "wear". But then, the customer puts their finger square on "top" of the coin, and pushes down and away from them, sliding the coin across the counter towards the shopkeeper. Shopkeeper picks it up and puts it in the till, where it remains untouched for the rest of the day. End of the day, the shopkeeper then picks up the coin again, looks at it and says "hey, that's a nice coin, I'm keeping it in my coin collection", and the coin stays well-preserved ever since. Result: a coin with nothing but a single heavy fingerprint on the "top" side, and high-point friction all over the "bottom" side. Thus, "rub" on one side of the coin and not the other.

I'll admit to being a harsh grader. Rub is wear, whether it's from circulation or coin cabinet makes no difference, the physical process is identical. "Cabinet friction" should disqualify a coin from being MS.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
United States
601 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2022  10:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KauaiHawaiiGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well I admit that I have not done a scientific analysis of just how hard one would have to press, how long of a slide, or how rough a counter would have to be, but as to your scenario .........
Quote:
the customer puts their finger square on "top" of the coin, and pushes down and away from them, sliding the coin across the counter towards the shopkeeper. Shopkeeper picks it up and puts it in the till, where it remains untouched for the rest of the day. End of the day, the shopkeeper then picks up the coin again, looks at it and says "hey, that's a nice coin, I'm keeping it in my coin collection", and the coin stays well-preserved ever since. Result: a coin with nothing but a single heavy fingerprint on the "top" side, and high-point friction all over the "bottom" side. Thus, "rub" on one side of the coin and not the other.
I think that it would need more than a single slide across a single shop counter to get enough "rub" that would equate to wear and disqualify a coin from MS. In theory it sounds possible but not very plausible. Try it with a brand new coin that has no value beyond face and see just how hard and how many times you would need to press down and slide across a counter before you saw any actual "rub".
Pillar of the Community
United States
1524 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2022  10:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The reality is that below Choice BU, there is always some wear on a coin. Grading is a continuum of wear and marks from MS-65 to P-01. A lot of people have trouble telling the difference between MS-62 and AU-58 and the truth is there isn't much if any in some cases.
Valued Member
Germany
179 Posts
 Posted Yesterday   09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HP2001PH to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the AU-58 coin should look better than the MS-62 coin.

If the AU coin has as many marks and dings as a MS-62, but also sone wear/rub on top of that I guess it goes down to mid-to-low AU, right?

https://www.coinagemag.com/how-to-g...isual-guide/
  Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 492Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.





Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2022 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2022 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.47 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: