Altered Date Coins On Ebay

There are three altered "Rarity" auctions running now. All three are absolutely 100% frauds - all three will sell because there are bids. But the three examples show three different levels of alteration expertise. Can they be posted and discussed before the auctions end?

The first auction - easiest to spot is 8400394558. This purports to be an 1843 Guadalajara 8R a coin considered Rare and would be worth roughly $500 in this condition. The coin is altered from one made after 1887 - a "Standardized Die Type" - can anyone spot the MAJOR ERROR? You don't need to know much about Mexican coins to see the problem on this one.

The second auction is just a bit harder to spot as a forgery and does require some familiarity with Mexican Type coins although there is an obvious problem visible. The auction is 8400393953. The coin purports to be an 1833 from Mexico City which is also Rare and worth about $650. This coin is also made from a standardized die type host and is only worth silver content. The obvious problem is that after the last two digits of the date and the two assayer initials were altered - the forger didn't get the toning right making the 4 altered characters stand out like a sore thumb. Of course if you know what the Standardized die looks like you don't need that clue.

The third auction is much harder to spot because the forger selected the correct die style. The auction is 8401337148. This forger is more clever - he started with a common 1864 Zacatecas coin worth about $20 and changed the 4 to a 5. This makes it the Rare 1865 worth $300-400. Luckily he didn't know what the correct 5 looks like. The top bar is supposed to be short and STRAIGHT. However, if he had gotten the 5 correct it is essentially impossible to spot the alteration on a scan.

Hi Fred - How do I add the "complete URL"? And for that matter what exactly are you talking about? I am not too adept at computers - I went to school in the days of slide rules and crank adding machines. I even have a hard time finding my way back to this spot to reply unless I get an email.

The problem that I face is that I collect counterfeits. I just finished an inventory of my Cap and Ray 8Rs from Mexico (1823-1897) and I have 1,765 of them (the vast majority are counterfeits). I want ebay to allow counterfeits to be sold - the legal ones at the very least. I am very fearful that they will simply stop all auctions involving counterfeits of any age. That would be very wrong in my opinion. I just believe that the buyer (bidder) should be told what he/she is bidding on. That way I could buy a forgery made in the 1830s without having to bid against novice collectors who think the coin is real. I don't mind bidding against other specialists because that sets a true market price. Counterfeits made during the Hard Times or during the colonial era are historical and very interesting. They circulated alongside the real thing and in some cases circulated as "tokens" long after the fraud involved had become obvious. One of the reasons that Riddell published his book was to act as a guide to the intrinsic value of these circulating forgeries. In some cases, the counterfeits contained 70 cents worth of silver. That amounts to an intrinsic value higher than the Bank of England issues of 1804.

I believe that the US law covers current (legal tender) items and instruments but does not apply to foreign coins made before 1973 that can be shown to have been in the US since the date of the law. That would effectively make all the coins listed in Riddell's 1844 book definitely legal. I also wonder about efforts to make "Fantasy" issues illegal. The illegality is the fraud involved in the sale not the mere existance of the items themselves.

These altered date THINGS are junk - they are FRAUDS and they are above all VERY OBVIOUS. If ebay wanted to stop this kind of fraud they could stop the PRIVATE auctions and show all feedback. Private auctions protect the seller only and assist the fraud. If I could write to a bidder and warn him/her that they are bidding on a fake - it would be my credibility against the seller's (not much admittedly at least until they buy a fake) but it might get some of these bidders to open their eyes and look at what they are bidding on.

Fred, I am doing this as an experiment to see if I have this URL business right. Here is the text that appears for an interesting auction on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=7402789974

This item is more of a medal than a coin but it portrays a Counterfeit 8R a common one dated 1882 which has been around since WWII. I find this item interesting because the English legend has been blundered - they spell SAMPLE as SANVPLE (obviously copying the M as NV) and the second part reads CIRCULATION NO.

I wonder if anyone on the Forum reads Chinese - I wonder exactly what they are trying to say.

YESSSSS!!!!!! All three auctions have been removed! Swamperbob, you have yourself to thank and to take full credit. I don't know how many others also reported the three coins, but it was enough to attract ebay's attention. BTW, ebay tends to remove coin listings from Singapore, China, and Hong Kong much faster than other listings.

You have the URL stuff down perfectly. That 1882 specimen is curious. It looks like a coin within a coin. A couple other red flags: the Hong Kong location and the really bad feedback score of 97.8% (of 749 possible) with his feedback comments private. I'll report it to ebay and see what they do.

Please keep up the good work!

Fred

Here I was just listing reasons on another thread why we shouldn't add yet one more section to the CCF forum and now I'm promoting another one myself.

Bob, it would be up to Susan and Bobby if they wanted to add a section, but I think the inclination would be to have a major heading of "Fraud Auctions", then break it down into illegal or illicit copies or reproductions; this could further break down into admitted and not admitted counterfeits; and misrepresentation of coins (probably the most common fraud). There's probably dozens of possible sub-categories.

Something to think about.

Fred

This is getting better - while checking the auctions of xzyyyj I found a copy (identical in all respects) to a counterfeit that I already own. This one is hard to spot in a scan - you really need to see one in person. They are struck silver coins - my copy weighs just OVER 27 grams. The Specific Gravity is slightly off - too high. I believe my copy is Sterling Silver. The die break on the reverse (through the crown) is the die marker I now use to identify this forgery. The coin also has a believable edge design that is only slightly off. I have found these two dies remated with 6 other dies. They form a deceptive series. The die marker on the obverse consists of the raised dots before the King's eyes.