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HBC Canada Fur Trade Post Money Counter Tokens ? Opinions  
 

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
879 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2010  7:08 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add D to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Does anyone have knowledge or information that can point me in the right direction on these tokens

I have found that the first tokens used at trading posts were made of lead and used as counters equal to one made beaver. They were also made of stone, ivory, wood etc. and each HBC post would appear to have had individual control over their tokens issued without any connection to other posts or to HBC headquarters. Some would have the initials of the post and or the owner.

HB could possibly be Hudson Bay or Hannah Bay House post at the south point of James Bay.

These could also be reproductions...

One thing for sure the Leather Pouch is real and has age... Thanks








Pillar of the Community
Canada
624 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2010  10:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrCanada to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting , bag is very cool , I have been looking for info on a pewter like token with HBC on it but no denomination and have wondered what it is as well.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
879 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2010  11:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
MrCanada.... The pouch is very cool..

It is sewn from the bottom center with 4 short seams 1 1/8 inch long each.
In researching this I found that these pouches were sewn this way to prevent loss of money, gold etc and also less chance of water entry due to no full length seams.. They knew what they were doing..

Notice the old dried blood.. I wish this pouch could talk...
Valued Member
Canada
351 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2010  11:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add snaz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was actually thinking about sending you an email asking about these, and what "those guys" said. Thanks for sharing them here. Perhaps someone will shed some light.
New Member
Canada
26 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2010  09:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add andrelus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i am see in the book of larry gingras page 68 # 200


the text in book


in the american numismatic association convention of 1952 lot 909 was descripe
round token made of walrus ivory H.B lightly scratch on obverse , reverse blank , 34 mm . said to have represented `` one beaver " and to have been used at the james bay and machenzie river statioons of the company long previous to the brass tokens . accompanied by a note confirming the above information .
rarete 10 1 know



other round flat disk measuring about 22mm and believed cut from bone or shell , were found at moose factory and are said to have been used ther as counters
raret7 6-10 know


if this help you thanks for the picture very nice
Pillar of the Community
Canada
879 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2010  11:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
andrelus..Thank you for the information..

I knew about this book, but was unable to find a copy or anyone that had one to see what it said..

Here are pictures of the trading tokens you mentioned plus one made from stone. The ivory & shell are blank both sides, the stone is blank on one side. Apparently prior to these the first tokens were made from lead.. I would assume probably the same process as making musket balls..






New Member
Canada
26 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2010  1:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add andrelus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
VERY NICE PICTURE IS YOUR TOKEN OR IS FROM MUSEUM
Pillar of the Community
Canada
879 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2010  2:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 3 tokens of Ivory, Shell and Stone are from the Museum. This is a great site for reference...
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4108 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2010  2:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chequer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
d23, The Canadian Numismatic Journal listed a few references for an article on HBC East Main District MB Tokens in the September 2009 edition (you may know about this if you are a RCNA member):

Larry Gingras, "Medals and Tokens of the HBC" The Beaver (Summer 1968), pp 14-19
R. W. McLachlan "The 'Beaver Currency' Tokens of the Hudson's Bay Company" The Canadian Antiquarian Vol. II (January 1892), pp. 1-6

I don't know if any copies of these would be available anywhere, but thought I'd mention them in case they could be of help.
Bedrock of the Community
10045 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2010  2:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That pouch sure looks like it's seen the elements--have you determined what it's made from? Buckskin--or sealskin?
The tokens look old too...I hope you find out more about them.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
879 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2010  3:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
chequer..Thank you.. I have contacted the CN Journal and they sent a list of all the issues refering to Hudson Bay Tokens / Money.. There is so much good info that I have decided to join....

Dollar1948 went the extra mile and emailed me the a pdf file on the Sept. 2009 issue with the East Main tokens.. muchly appreciated.

DVCollector.. Appears to be deer hide, I have been speaking with leather experts and they believe it was probably tanned with brains and their guesstimate is 100 years plus and the sewing thread is in the era.

I have sent one to Mr Greg Ingram who is an expert on Hudson Bay for his inspection,review and any analysis that may help determine if these are authentic.

Pillar of the Community
Canada
4108 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2010  3:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chequer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
d23 - good to hear you joined ... I know I've seen a lot of info on HBC tokens over the years, so I'm sure you'll find something of interest. Plus, you'll have access to their library if there is a relevant book there.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
636 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2010  4:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dollar1948 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ive googled the heck out these tokens the past couple days, and I keep coming up empty.
Even tho I keep reading and reading that HBC tokens always has some numerical imprint on them, I know for a fact I have seen a picture a few years back of these. I don't recall reading that they were lead, but I do seem to recall myself thinking wow, in those days these could be counterfeited easily.
I have also recently read that it is not uncommon to find a hole in the HB tokens between the H and the B, tho I initially thought it would have been closer to the characters.
I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for clarification if these are authentic or not.
d23, mind me asking where you got these?
Thanks
Pillar of the Community
Canada
879 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2010  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
$1948.. I got these last year from an estate auction in Minnesota, USA. The auction was a rendezvous western type with native indian items and artifacts, knives, tommahawks, circa 1850's venetian beads, hudson bay beads, duck calls, rifle loading supplies etc.

Valued Member
Canada
437 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2010  12:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsnpaper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would suggest sending an email with the pictures to the bank of Canada Money Museum. I am sure someone there would be able to help you. Larry has been dead for quite a few years now, but there are other knowledgeable folk out there. B OF C Museum is a good place to start.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
879 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2010  12:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coinsnpaper, yes that is a great site and I use it for reference alot. I have sent them an email..

These tokens if authentic I believe would have come from the Hannah Bay House near James Bay. Before the more common known ones made of brass the early ones made of lead usually (not always) had the intials of the post where there were used. Some of them had the amount of beaver and others had a blank on the other side.

Here is an interesting text account refering to the tokens:



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