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1795 US Dollar - ANACS - Fake?

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2006  09:11 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Here we have a very interesting auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=8410781544

It is for an encapsulated 1795 US Dollar - but the seller shows pictures of the identical coin - outside the holder. He includes some edge scans that I personally find unbelievable.

What does anyone else think?

Forget about the fact that this guy is from China - would you think this was real if it was sold by a US seller?
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Susanlynn9's Avatar
United States
5877 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2006  09:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While I'm far from being an expert in this area, the coin looks genuine to me. I can't see anything that jumps out at me to scream fake. It is possible that he took pictures of the coin and then submitted it to ANACS. We do that all the time so that we can get clearer pics for auctions.

Did you look at his other items? He has a lot of high-dollar coins that are known to be counterfeited, though the ones I looked at seemed genuine (though you are the expert).
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 07/06/2006  09:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
well there's you a way to make double your money, bid 5000.00 and I will bid 4999.00 and he will pay you 10,000.00 because its fake, I agree with Susan and I dont see anything that screams fake but if you say it is I beleive you 100% but can you give us some pointers to what gives this coin away?
Edited by Bryan1315
07/06/2006 09:47 am
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Bryan1315's Avatar
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 Posted 07/06/2006  09:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm still looking at it, the coin sure looks alot better in the holder than it did out if its the same coin

Edited to add: there is no way thats the same coin, the eye looks totally different and the nose is even shaped different in the raw picture. Well I guess "No way" is strong words because I am definately no expert but those characyeristics sure look different to me


Edited again: I stand by my not the same coin thing because the facial features just dont look the same at all, the upper lip is shaped different and a few other things just look weird, now to look at the reverse closely
Edited by Bryan1315
07/06/2006 09:55 am
Valued Member
United States
157 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2006  09:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ziggy29 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Bryan1315

Edited to add: there is no way thats the same coin, the eye looks totally different and the nose is even shaped different in the raw picture. Well I guess "No way" is strong words because I am definately no expert but those characyeristics sure look different to me


It looks like the same coin to me. I'm looking at spots, bagmarks, et cetera, and they are all in the same places in each set of images.
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Bryan1315's Avatar
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 Posted 07/06/2006  10:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
well look at the reverse, there are clearly casting marks not shown in the one in the holder, I stand by my not the same coin judgment but will await the experts opinion

Look at them side by side, look at the eye,upper lip,nose They look nothing alike the snot box on the raw coin looks like she has wicked witch of the west syndrome
1795-US-Dollar---ANACS---Fake?

Maybe its the artist in me but they definately dont look like they share the same profile to me
Edited by Bryan1315
07/06/2006 10:11 am
Valued Member
United States
157 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2006  10:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ziggy29 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is true. The nose and chin seem different but most of the marks and blemishes appear to be in the same place. Very intriguing. Even so, I wouldn't touch this one, and being from China is just another strike against it.
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TLS5933's Avatar
United States
1703 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2006  10:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TLS5933 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The hair over the forehead also seems to protrude further on the left coin compared to the right.Also the hair has a sharper angle pointing up a little further back on the head on the right picture.
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morganman's Avatar
United States
397 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2006  10:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add morganman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is the same coin. Looks fine to me. All marks in same place, plus toning in same spots....

As to authenticity, I see nothing that would make me think it is not real. BUT, I am not an "expert" on this series....

MM

PS. I would add that I personally would not buy ANYTHING from China.. or any other asian country for that matter. Absolutley No buyer protection.....
Edited by morganman
07/06/2006 10:22 am
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 07/06/2006  10:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
beleive me I could be very wrong, just stating what I think looks different. I will definately await Mr. Bobs ruling
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 07/06/2006  10:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the only way that could be the same coin is if she had a nose job and eye job before she went to ANACS
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morganman's Avatar
United States
397 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2006  10:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add morganman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is more info on that coin..

"The 1794 and 1795 Flowing Hair silver dollars are known for adjustment marks, usually found along the rim. Denticles are occasionally pushed up in places due to the edge lettering machine. The quality of the some of the planchets used was inferior. All of these qualities should be observed when considering a purchase or sale of this coin type. There was difficulty in striking these first silver dollars to a presentable quality. Look for a weakly struck obverse at about 6 o'clock with corresponding weakness on the reverse at the same point. The press used to produce these coins was actually meant for half dollar production. The dies were cut into shallow relief to accommodate striking, but this did not always succeed."

"The dollar's "third side," the edge, carries the inscription HUNDRED CENTS ONE DOLLAR OR UNIT, with decorations separating the words."


For what is is worth....

Sorry Bryan, I disagree, the camera angle and plastic case will play tricks. I say it is the same coin.

MM
Edited by morganman
07/06/2006 10:37 am
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Susanlynn9's Avatar
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 Posted 07/06/2006  10:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I also feel it is the same coin. Different lighting is needed to make a coin look the same in a holder as raw. With the irregular toning and marks, I have to say that the differences between the raw coin and the slabbed coin are an optical illusion.
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thekidcollector's Avatar
Kuwait
1523 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2006  10:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thekidcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is possible of cropping and pasting into ANACS holder.

TKC!
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2006  11:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
no need to appologize, I admit I could be wrong in this case and beleive me it sure isn't the first time and pretty sure it wouldn't be the last. I am just going to take this example as a learning experience either way. I was just stating what I thought were the differences and like I said could be very wrong but will just see what swamperbob sais about the coin either way
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adobero1's Avatar
United States
363 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2006  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add adobero1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know anything about cast counterfeits and don't have any books on the subject, but one thing I noticed is quite a few little craters/bubbles in areas where one wouldn't expect to find too many circulation marks. Namely, look to the right of America on the reverse shot of the coin "outside" the holder. Don't know if this could be indicative of a cast coin? But, maybe some pitting like that is to be expected on a coin over 200 yrs. old? There are quite a few examples of pitting like that all over the coin. I would think that cast counterfeits would be more crudely done, though. (you'll notice I'm not committing myself here!)
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