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The Mystery Of South East Asian Coinage

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Ancientnoob's Avatar
United States
5155 Posts
 Posted 10/03/2014  4:05 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Ancientnoob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Those who frequent the board might have seen my two most recent threads on Pyu and Funan might have realized that these coins are not the usual classical ancient. They are quite exotic and havea style all unto themselves.

I made an attempt to further research these coins in hopes of expanding my numismatic knowledge. Unfortunately, I have only been able to find a few snippets of books online and few mentions in the various numismatic boards, I attempted to tackle the subject by looking at results from excavations and the cataloging of other artifacts. At the end of the day I feel like I know less than when I started.

I have come to the conclusion that these coins are of the most mysterious nature. I started with compulsive reading on the "Sun Rising over the Ocean" type commonly attributed to the Kingdom of Funan. When sold these coins are marketed as just that, Funan Coins. After reading a few older articles on the excavations and the radiocarbon and thermo luminescent analysis of the wood columns and gates at the oldest Pyu City state of Beikthano they determined that the city's oldest structures date to about AD 70 and the fiery destruction of the city occurred just before AD 500. The city was completely devoid of the Buddhist and Hindu artifacts that are commonly found at Halin and Sri Ksetra, but what is found is the Rising Sun coinage. Hum? If these coins are found in abundance in the 3rd to 5th century strata of the site does this mean that these coins originated in this location because they are considerably older then like coins found in the Kingdom of Funan (6th to 7th century AD)?

Would it be safe to theorize that the coins were simply carried off and reused in another distant area, rather than being copies of the type? If Funan a Buddhist kingdom was under Chenla Hindu subjugation by the time of Beikthano's destruction and the Buddhist had been all but whipped out in Cambodia, Thailand and Southern Vietnam, would the coins continue to carry strong Buddhist influence after the fact?

Since no evidence of a manufacturing center has been discovered at the Funan sites but have been at the Pyu sites is it safe to assume these are really some of the earliest Beikthano, Pyu coins. Several other heavy types similar to the Sri Ksetra type I posted have been recovered in all three cities dating to the 300s AD, which are all rare and seem to have wide distribution and short emission period. There is little hoard evidence and most coins are often found as single specimens and when found in hoards are found with several different types independently dated as late as 832 AD, the final fall of the Pyu from repeated Chinese and Burmese invasion.

I am not sure if I have all the facts right. I am also not sure if all the information I am reading is current, I suppose this is an example of buy the book then the coin. (Nah) I buy the coin before the book. I know there is a new book out (Mahlo) which attempts to shine some light on this. I have a coin coming from Scott Seman and he was nice enough to share the excerpt of the book with the new coin mentioned. Its a rare type minted sometime in the mid 300's at Halin. It is similar the Sri Ksetra piece but nearly 11 grams pure silver. I wont post a picture of it till I have it in hand, (Thats bad ju-ju.)

Chinese sources in the 7th century say the Pyu had coins made of Gold and silver. No Pyu gold coin has ever been recovered. Pyu coins of all sizes have been recovered some have even been recovered along side Roman coins, presumably from trade with India.

I have to wonder if the use of coins ended in 832 AD and did not resume until the early modern period, and barter was the way of the land under the Pegu and subsequent peoples, then maybe these "coins" were not coins at all, but rather pendants or amulets used for bullion similar to Roman coins used in India. A great number of Pyu coins are hold and seem to be used as jewelry for many centuries.

Would it be possible for some of the other numismatists out there to weigh in with your thoughts, because based on what I have read, your guess is as good as any.
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echizento's Avatar
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23731 Posts
 Posted 10/03/2014  4:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well my friend it looks like you are embarking on a new course of study in Ancient coinage. These are very interesting coins, but with the lack of information they are going to be difficult to catalog.
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VisigothKing's Avatar
United States
4778 Posts
 Posted 10/03/2014  4:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add VisigothKing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd probably be the last person to help you with any of this, but your post only reminds me how much of an expert numismatist you are. Liking coins is one thing but doing quality research behind the history of said coins is a whole other higher level IMO. Kudos Anoob!
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 10/03/2014  5:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well said VK, ditto..
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Ancientnoob's Avatar
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5155 Posts
 Posted 10/04/2014  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ancientnoob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jeeze thanks guys.
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Pertinax's Avatar
United Kingdom
2133 Posts
 Posted 10/04/2014  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pertinax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If Funan a Buddhist kingdom was under Chenla Hindu subjugation by the time of Beikthano's destruction and the Buddhist had been all but whipped out in Cambodia, Thailand and Southern Vietnam, would the coins continue to carry strong Buddhist influence after the fact?


There might have been good economic reason for them to do so.

If people trusted a coinage that had particular symbols or legends then unless a new polity was strong enough to enforce a different message and get their coins accepted, it would make sense to continue a trusted coinage.

That reality, after all, was seen in the Muslim invaders of the Byzantine empire issuing a coinage with images - wholly against Islamic doctrine or in Saxon and Merovingian imitations of Arabic coins.
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Ancientnoob's Avatar
United States
5155 Posts
 Posted 10/18/2014  1:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ancientnoob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a group shot of the three types I own does anyone have anything else.

For those that are interested use the forum search function keyword Pyu.



The-Mystery-Of-South-East-Asian-Coinage
Edited by Ancientnoob
10/18/2014 1:35 pm
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2015  03:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a copy of
'Siamese Coins and Tokens', publ. by the Andrew Publishiubg Company, London, 1977.
It is divided into three parts:

Part 1 'Coinage of Siam' by Le May,

Part 11 Studies of Old Siamese Coins, gathered by Kneedler and Guhler,
Selected Articles from
The Siam Society Joiurnal,

Part 111 Ramsden, 'Siamese Porcelain and Other Tokens'.

Plate X pg 244, and Plate 1, pg 324, most accurately refer to this thread, with pictures of similar coins.

What has attracted me to this thread is that I am considering to buy a similar coin.
Alas, it is not in very good condition, because the people who found it appeared to have wire brushed it after recovery from burial.
Price from Noble Numismatics in Sydney is U.S.$85.00
At least, I get to have a good look at it 'in hand'!

Actually, Noble Numismatics would have one of the most extensive numismatic libraries in the World with more than 5,000 specialist numismatic books avaliable for ready reference by their staff. They need it to support their international auction business of more than $10 million per year.

Fortunately, I am fairly friendly with the CEO, although I am just one of their longest standing customers.

I need to do some reading!
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DavidUK's Avatar
United Kingdom
2624 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2015  05:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank goodness for people like you. I would be no use, as much as I am interested in coins when it comes to the types with foreign script and no graspable or easily understood features I just scratch my head and say "can anybody read this?"

To embark on researching the history of the coins themselves is a noble project, I wish you the best of luck.

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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2015  06:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have set my set myself some reasonably onerous tasks.
I am in the process of identifying about 100 Isalmic silver coins I acquired for $U.S. 250, at a public auction.

So far, I have identified about 150 tribes that issued them; at least that is a start.

Pity I can't read the Arabic script found on coins!
Stephen Album Coins for sale, and Zeno.ru may be my next help.
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United States
3433 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2015  01:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
By an interesting coincidence I recently made acquaintance with a college student from Vietnam. It seems both he and his father (the General) are collectors of 'antiquities'. While studying at school he somehow became aware of Greek & Roman coins ! He has completely gone bonkers and has started selling everything (so it seems) in order to buy ancients !
More directly to the point I just now dropped him at Logan Airport for the 24 hour flight to visit the 'folks'.
The last thing he said to me was he wanted to bring me back some "ancient" Vietnamese coins.
Seeing you are expanding your horizons into the Mekong I will ask him to bring along some extras !
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34393 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2025  09:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As it turns out, there has been a bit of an update to this field with the recent publication, "Currents of currency: utilising die studies to trace Rising Sun/Srivatsa coin distribution in first-millennium AD Southeast Asia" by Harris et al. It is an interesting read and can be found for free on the Antiquities website. Here is the abstract:


Quote:
First minted by polities in north-central Myanmar as early as the fourth century AD, silver coins bearing Rising Sun and Srivatsa motifs have been found in numerous archaeological contexts across Southeast Asia from Vietnam to Bangladesh. Strong standardisation in the design of these coins highlights patterns of trade and cultural interaction across this
region that are otherwise underexplored. Here, the authors draw on a dataset of 245 coins from museums in Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand and Myanmar, identifying die links that support trade routes between widely disparate areas, and illuminating the utility of die studies in counteracting the illicit trafficking of antiquities.



The-Mystery-Of-South-East-Asian-Coinage
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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