| Author |
 Replies: 15 / Views: 476 |
|
|
New Member
United States
10 Posts |
The coin/token as pictured below, has an uncanny similarity to the first Colony of Massachusetts shillings, sixpences and threepences. Interesting that it has been struck near the edge like them. The stamp reads P, retrograde N, E, D This could be interpreted as Penny, New England, Denarius. There were tokens in use at the Colony of Massachusetts contemporaneously on which both "penny" and/or "P" and/or "D" for "denarius" were displayed. Another possibility is that the stamped cipher pertains to P for Samuel Paddy, and D for Jeremiah (Jeremie) Dummer, both apprenticed to the Colony of Massachusetts' mintmaster John Hull, a silversmith, in 1659. Paddy and Dummer were tasked with making coin dies for the Colony. The stamp is redolent of a silversmith maker's mark. More on this later. I have studied the Colony's coins extensively and the history around them and have been of the opinion that the production of a farthing, half penny and penny must have been considered and actioned, especially as there was a dire shortage of coinage, and especially so the low denominations. Appears to be feasibly 17th century. Diameter is 21mm. Weight is 6.39g The weight corresponds to that of penny tokens of that period. Appears to be bronze, brass, or latten. (to be tested) This was originally sold with early American coins as a hitherto unknown Mexican Hacienda token unlisted in Grove, Rulau, Ekland/Noe. That description was obviously a shot in the dark by the seller. It actually bears little resemblance whatsoever to any listed hacienda token.   Edited by FreiherrVonNumis
08/09/2026 04:11 am
|
|
|
|
New Member
 United States
10 Posts |
I am not saying that it is an early Colony of Massachusetts penny, but am here to seek opinions.
I do realise that the chances are slim but I do think there is a chance that it could be an important pattern.
Even if it was an important early colonial proving it would obviously be a monumental task.
Edited by FreiherrVonNumis
08/09/2026 12:10 am
|
|
Moderator
 United States
34511 Posts |
@frei,first welcome to CCF. Quote:
That description was obviously a shot in the dark by the seller. Second, with regard to SARC, I'm not saying that they are infallible, but without any evidence to the contrary, I'd generally believe their hunches as to attribution. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
|
|
Moderator
United States
102603 Posts |
 to CCF. |
|
New Member
United States
10 Posts |
Thank-you for the welcomes to CCF. Much appreciated.
If XRF metallurgical analysis matches known mid to late 17th century profiles then that would exclude any known Mexican tokens by a minimum of 150 years. The metallurgical profiles of such tokens are highly distinctive.
The metallurgical profile could also indicate whether my item is 17th century or not.
Edited by FreiherrVonNumis
08/09/2026 11:22 am
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4426 Posts |
FWIW, in my seventy years of collecting, I've not before seen the like of this curious piece. It'd be interesting to know the metallic content.
My hunch is that it may be a circa 1700's era church penny or IOU of sorts ... redeemable in private treaty. I've a pair of early c/s'd pieces that appear tp have served similarly.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1687 Posts |
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4426 Posts |
Yep, it's the subject token, just NOT a coin.
|
|
New Member
United States
10 Posts |
I have purchased it prior to my initial post.
Edited by FreiherrVonNumis
08/09/2026 8:26 pm
|
|
New Member
United States
10 Posts |
I have purchased it prior to my initial post.
The seller repeated the auction house description.
|
|
New Member
United States
10 Posts |
Circa 1790 Presbyterian Church of Albany NY so-called church penny.  It may be a church token, and I have considered that as a possibility. The church tokens I am familiar with tend to have more detail than my item. Edited by FreiherrVonNumis
08/09/2026 8:13 pm
|
|
Moderator
United States
34511 Posts |
Quote:
The metallurgical profiles of such tokens are highly distinctive. If/when you decide to take this step, please post the test results to this thread.Thx! "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
|
|
New Member
United States
10 Posts |
I will post the XRF results as soon as I get them, then get more specialized tests run if I think it necessary.
Metal testing doesn't prove authenticity as such but it can exclude, eg if it conclusively establishes that it is not made of metal from circa 1650.
Edited by FreiherrVonNumis
08/10/2026 2:08 pm
|
|
Moderator
United States
192764 Posts |
to the Community! |
|
New Member
United States
10 Posts |
Thank-you for the further welcomes.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
9803 Posts |
An interesting piece, I look forward to hearing more about it and the XRF results. At this time I am leaning towards agreement with ExoGuy's comments, likely a private treaty piece and/or counterstamped.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 |
| |
Replies: 15 / Views: 476 |
|
Posted 08/09/2026 06:16 am
