A Question Of Definitions

You're not being too picky. This same issue crops up when time-travel threads are posted; by "contemporary money" do we mean money from our present time, or money from the destination time?

I'm not sure "contemporaneous" would catch on - there's way too many syllables. In the above thread I suggested "period", since that doesn't seem to carry the same ambiguity that "contemporary" does.

I would certainly welcome more linguistic precision here.

We have essentially three types of forgeries. The ones made almost simultaneously as the original, the ones made significantly later but still meant to enter circulation, and the modern ones only meant to fool collectors. Could we somehow use this in descriptions? A.e. simultaneous counterfeit, later counterfeit and modern counterfeit?

Litotes I understand the quest for precision, but I want to give you some of the "exceptions" that cause difficulty.

In the 1980s there was an auction from the estate of a jeweler. This was a family business that had been operating in Massachusetts since about 1800. In the estate, was a pair of dies used to strike Mexican 8R coins and about 50 strikes made from the die pair. The dies sold for a price I could not touch but I did get 4 copies of the strikes made from the dies. The coins had OLD luster very subdued so they had been made some time before the sale but were essentially MINT STATE (or at least "Forger" State). I paid $4 each and figured they were simple Modern Forgeries kind of JUNK - RIGHT?

Wrong - the die type was listed in Riddell's 1845 publication and they were known to exist in circulation in New Orleans prior to that date. The coins were dated 1834. Had I known that fact, I would have bid $10,000 for the dies. But it was too late and the dies are hidden away in an anonymous collection somewhere.

But my question is, what is the correct classification for a forgery known to have existed in the 1840s but for which the dies have survived. Are they Restrikes? And if so, how would anyone ever know that if the dies had not appeared in the same sale?

How many Riddell dies have survived is UNKNOWN but it is NOT many at all. I have only heard of 2 pairs. But I have not examined either pair personally. So I am not aware of the condition of those die pairs - they many no longer be serviceable for coining.

The coins you refer to as

are a different situation. I presume you are referring to the Boston type bullion forgeries made 100 or so years after the originals to be used at face value in the China Trade. You could also include the Maria Theresa Thalers made into the middle of the last century in Africa or those made in other unauthorized mints which have the full weight of silver in them.

I have struggled over the years to come up with a simple yet precise enough descriptive term to cover those coins.

I prefer to limit the Number of major categories and include the late dated copies with circulating - perhaps with a note or asterisk.

The best I have come up with to date is a number and letter approach - like an outline format where later refinements add to the identification number. It is not complete and I just created this list off the top of my head but I am leaning toward this approach as the only possible way to be clear and precise.

Class 1 - Contemporaneous Circulating Counterfeit
1A - Coins of Known Age/origin
1A.1 Debased coins Made in the Mint (mint fraud)
1A.2 Coins Made outside the Mint with mint dies
1A.3 Coins made with Transfer Dies Molds
1A.4 Coin made using Fantasy Dies
1A.4.a Barbaric Copies (originated as a class by
Calbetto)
1A.4.b Faithful copies
1B - Coins of Indeterminate age/origin
1B.1 Coins Made outside the Mint with mint dies
1B.2 Coins made with Transfer Dies Molds
1B.3 Coins made using Fantasy Dies
1B.3.a Barbaric Copies

1C - Contemporaneous Issues Non-monetary (but at times
circulated as money)
1C.1 Buttons and Militaria
1C.2 Jewelry
1C2.a Original coins
1C2.b Plated originals
1C2.c Coins created as jewelry
1C.3 Advertising and Medals
1C.4 Play Money
1C.5 Markers, counters

Class 2 - Modern Counterfeits

2A - Numismatic Forgeries (precision copies)
2A.1 Correct Alloy forgeries
2A.2 Off metal copies
2B - Tourist Forgeries (crude and off metal)

Class 3 - Alterations made to Original Coins (Fraudulent Intent)
3A - Clipping or shaving
3A.1 Cutting, clipping
3A.2 Hollowing out - Mining
3B - Plating to pass as something else
3B.1 Plating to change denomination
Racketeer nickels
3B.2 Plating old forgery to pass a 2nd time
3C - Altering Date or variety creation
3C.1 Numismatic value
Three leg Buffalo, added mint mark, altered date
Repaired hole
3C.2 Artistic or Political Satire
Love Tokens, Hobo Nickels, Potty Dollars etc

Class 4 - Non-Fraudulent Intent Issues (possibly used in fraud
at a later time)
4A Museum copies
4A.1 Electrotypes
4A.2 Cast copies ( envision break down by technology)
4B Souvenir Copies
4C School or Training copies