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Are Fakes Being Unwittingly Sold As Genuine Coins

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cinemabon's Avatar
United States
154 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2011  7:00 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add cinemabon to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I received a call from my numismatic mentor/friend yesterday. He wanted to focus my attention on a coin auction in progress. "Note the deep rim," he said of a coin being sold as an "error" coin. "Now look at the porous surface. See those pits? Now look over at the stars next to the rim. See how flat they are?" When I answered in the affirmative, he had one answer. "The coin is a fake." I wondered how he knew. "When I trained with (a famous coin grading company), they showed us how to spot fakes. That is a poured coin." I wondered how the online auction site could sell them if they knew. He replied, "They probably don't realize they're fakes."

My question to you coin collectors out there: How many of you suspect that certain coins being offered up for auction are not genuine? In the case of online auctions, it's buyer beware and your level of knowledge about what is or is not the real thing.

Your thoughts...
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Saruma's Avatar
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 Posted 10/29/2011  7:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Saruma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are you talking about an ebay auction or one from a true auction house like Heritage? With ebay anything goes, at least for listing an item. Unless someone reports the auction to ebay it will go through. If ebay does catch it they will take down the auction and probably suspend the seller.

If it is a place like Heritage then someone probably isn't doing their job. My guess is the way a fake would get through there is if the coin is in one of the really good counterfeit slabs that aren't easily detected.
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jfransch's Avatar
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 Posted 10/29/2011  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are fake coins being sold in auctions everywhere, I would like to think it is because the seller doesn't know but in many auctions where the coin is pointed out to be fake and that is not disclosed at the actual sale I wonder about the moral character of the seller.
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fcrazo's Avatar
United States
651 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2011  12:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fcrazo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Plenty of fakes being pushed around and then sellers claiming ignorance.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16827 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2011  02:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Are fakes being unwittingly sold as genuine coins

Yes.

Everyone knows to avoid buying coins from China, because they're all fakes. But what about the "second-hand" fake sellers who do buy coins from China, then on-sell them? What about "third hand", or "fourth hand" sellers? A fake coin that remains in the marketplace for long enough will eventually be sold by someone who genuinely does not know the coin is fake, perhaps decades later. This is why your Hobby Protection Act insists on fakes being clearly marked as such. However, as current trends with the imports of Chinese fakes demonstrates, a law is only as good as its enforcement, and the Hobby Protection Act is not (and probably cannot be) well enforced.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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VisigothKing's Avatar
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 Posted 10/30/2011  11:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add VisigothKing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh yeah, without a doubt.
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 Posted 10/30/2011  12:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There are fake coins being sold in auctions everywhere, I would like to think it is because the seller doesn't know but in many auctions where the coin is pointed out to be fake and that is not disclosed at the actual sale I wonder about the moral character of the seller.


I've said this before that I really think many collectors and dealers have fakes of all sorts and just don't know. Many fakes from China are really good and some are made from the correct metals since they are to be sold as real. Way to many think that all fakes are magnetic and just not so. I've had dealers tell me that way to many times they've sent in coins to a TPGS andthey came back fake. And China is not the only ones making fakes. Strange as it may be, even some might be made right here in the USA. Imagine counterfeiting right here. What would Al Capone say about that?
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cinemabon's Avatar
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 Posted 10/30/2011  3:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cinemabon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was informed that one of the true tests of a coin is its weight. Is that true?
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trout1105's Avatar
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2011  5:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was informed that one of the true tests of a coin is its weight. Is that true?

The correct weight and size is a verry important indicator of being a genuine coin But it is not a 100% guide
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 10/31/2011  5:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lets put it this way, if the weight is wrong it is almost certainly fake, but if the weight is correct it may still be fake. Back in the 60's some counterfeiters making fake error coins used genuine US mint blank planchets
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cinemabon's Avatar
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 Posted 11/01/2011  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cinemabon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excuse my ignorance, but how does someone get a hold of an actual US Mint planchet? Wouldn't that have to be an inside job? I thought the balance of copper/nickel and other metals was a very difficult mix and that the weight was a dead give away when counterfeiters were substituting other metals to lessen the expense (such as the mix in silver or gold coins). Also, I understand that the newest craze is (not to make any waves here) is to make fake Morgans. I know this site has its Morgan fans, but my "professional" friend advised me not to buy any Morgans. He said that in a recent memo, the market might be (notice the out here), might be flooded with Morgan knock-offs. Your thoughts?
Bedrock of the Community
United States
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 Posted 11/01/2011  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I was informed that one of the true tests of a coin is its weight. Is that true?

Only good for a coin in really high grades and even then, far from fool proof. Remember that any coin as it gets circulated gets wear and that means it is less in weight than original. Some coins get corrosion on them and that actually adds weight to the coin. Scratches, nicks, dents, wear all take their toll on a coins weight. And as most already know, many counterfeiters use actual materials so the weight is correct. They are doing that to sell, not use.
It's possible every one of your coins is fake.
Well may not allllllllll.
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dave700x's Avatar
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 Posted 11/01/2011  10:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the warm and fuzzy Carl.....
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Conder101's Avatar
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17884 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2011  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Genuine US Mint blanks planchets are fairly easy to get ahold of because they tend to slip out with the regular coinage. They can often be purchased from dealers in quantity for a relatively low price. Used to be that cent or nickel planchet for a dollar or two apiece. Less in bulk.

Contemporary counterfeits that were intended to circulate as money did use either short weight /fineness planchets or different alloys because the profit was coming from the difference in the cost of the metal and the face value of the coin. Collector counterfeits often used the correct alloys and weights because the profit was the difference betwee the value of the metal and the collectors premium for the coins rather than the face value. Use of the correct alloy and weight makes the detection of the fake more difficult and allows the counterfeiter to pass more of them before the fake is discovered. (This is why the Chinese are learning and are getting away from the off alloys and are moving to the proper alloys and weights. Especially on their better fakes.)

Another case occurred back in the late 50's early 60's when a LOT of fake US gold coins started coming out of the middle east. At the time US citizen could not own gold, but they could own US gold coins. Even the common US gold coins tended to sell at about twice the value of the gold in the coins. So the counterfeiters could use full gold weight and fineness and immediately pass them for close to a 100% profit. Sure they could have used a lower fineness but once again lowering the weight or fineness would make it easier to detect and reject the fakes. (In some cases they even uses higher weights and fineness. than standard) It was a case of "pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered." which is really a mixed metaphor when used with Muslim countries.
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cinemabon's Avatar
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154 Posts
 Posted 11/03/2011  10:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cinemabon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My friend also informs me that the reason he collects coins from the 19th Century (principally) is because of the side imprinting/stamping. Some coins from the 1800's have values imprinted along the outside edge of the coin which counterfeiters find impossible to duplicate.
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oih82w8's Avatar
United States
7840 Posts
 Posted 11/03/2011  10:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oih82w8 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You can bet your 1849 Double Eagle that they (fakes) are being sold unwittingly, both raw and slabbed.
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