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 Replies: 46 / Views: 6,495 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1315 Posts |
It seems I have had dealings with this same seller. Here is a picture of coin I purchased recently and of a coin I believe was used to create it with. The coin on the right is the one I bought. The flan is definitely the same. Notice the same desert patina as the Augustus JW has. I have more examples of coins (before and after) treated in this same way. Like bobbyhelmet mentioned......seller should disclose the facts so the market could decide. Your comments about these coins would be appreciated. Thanks   |
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Moderator
 United States
23731 Posts |
Excellent detective work, Sorry the coin turned out to be tooled. I hope that you are able to get your money back. Fraud is a crime and the person that commit this fraud are criminals and should be treated as such. I see no reason why a list of these persons should not be complied and made available so as to warn other collectors.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4253 Posts |
I don't know the price he paid, but I have a message into the original seller who says he will provide me all the pertinent information. I will let everyone here know when I know.
I can't take the credit for finding this. Another collector thought recognized the tooling and repatination, which led to the discovery.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
In a way, it's a good thing an extra set of knobs was retooled, because that coin will always get extra scrutiny.
The second coin is obviously a match--and heavily retooled. That one upsets me even a bit more--it's almost a total fabrication.
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Pillar of the Community
Bulgaria
843 Posts |
Sorry JW but the augustus coin with four door knobs is bad copy.This was typed buy the guys in Bulgarian forum.Sry that I use google translator but I cant translate it because I havent time :)
In that sense, it is still Mint of Rome, I think is clear. It is unclear how the official acted, ie will be like in the 4th century Rome and Constantinople have 6-7 Offi, but presumably they were at least two. And even if one official seals were at least a few to allow for differences. So with that supposedly explained why the doors are different ...
Now why fake:
- Patina that is very aesthetically collar Parvata much easier than chemical way to find
- Abnormal lesions of the nucleus of a coin in the eye zoata yadalka, rear of the building, behind and below the head, behind and below the inscription. I have not seen an authentic coin that is both so hurt, yet almost perfect relief of letters ....
- Uneven areas and destroying bird bells round the back
- The style of the letters is similar to a typical 1-century, and makes regular features, but some of them observed clumsiness and differences: (endings PATER I P, R, E otzad)
- Anyway, it is often produced fake (origin Italy / Turkey)
- If you clean the patina will most likely see a shiny part
Edited by t0rress
11/16/2011 1:51 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
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Your comments about these coins would be appreciated. The reverse 'before' picture shows the coin still has a lot of crud still on it - I doubt though that conventional cleaning methods could produce the sharpness of the 'after' pic but certainly some improvement could be made to its appearance. The obverse pic shows that these re-tooling methods go way beyond cleaning and attempt to re-create details that no longer exist. The results it has to be said, look good - in this case the obverse would have fooled me, definitely, perhaps the very clean (too clean) lines on the reverse would have aroused my suspicion but then again, perhaps not. Personally I would prefer the 'before' coin, not as attractive but 'authentic', I dont like the restored after 'coin' simply because I dont know how much of that detail was in the original die and how much has been added by the restorer. It has to be considered at what point could these coins be considered fakes? If the details in them are not the work of the die cutter 2000 years ago but the work of a man with a Dremel 2 weeks ago! Its a very grey area. Thanks for the thread - Its opened my eyes to a few things I was not previously aware of. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4778 Posts |
Impressive work guys. Too bad about the coin; it looked real nice and more authentic (IMO) before it got "worked on". I hope that in due time I'll be able to spot stuff like this.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4253 Posts |
I received the coin today and immediately wrote the seller explaining what I had found and that I wanted a full and complete refund. Within a few minutes, the seller wrote back agreeing to provide a refund once they receive the coin.
Now the big question to all of you. The coin is gorgeous in hand, and I'm sorely tempted to keep it even though I know it has been tooled. I have a day to decide as the Post Office in the U.S. is closed for holiday tomorrow. Should I keep this coin? I'm asking for your honest opinions about the coin, not my desire to keep it, if you know what I mean. I'm trying to say it as nice as I can, but I'm not wanting anyone to agree with me just for the sake of agreement.
Thanks for taking the time to think about this.
Jw
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
What did the seller say about the tooling - did he admit it or did he claim he did not know?
I'd keep it if he offered a 50% discount, if not I'd sent it back (at his expense), get my refund and then leave -ive feedback. Maybe even keep the coin and open a counterfeit claim with Paypal, not sure what other claims are available? Reading between the lines in this thread the seller has done this before so I feel no pity for him.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
I don't remember how much you paid, but if it's reasonable...I might keep the coin. Admittedly attractive, it's also a good example of how tooling can get discovered. And by keeping it, you keep that knowledge and the coin together, and prevent another collector from getting taken.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2044 Posts |
Even though I just started collecting I'd have to say that I would prefer real Roman coins. I don't even think I would want any retooled coins either. Just because I would want them authentic as possible. I have thought about this before and if I wanted a coin that is not authentic, I would just buy a labeled replica or copy.
It is your decision though. Although, you could keep it if the price was not too bad but I wouldn't place it in with the others in your collection.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4253 Posts |
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What did the seller say about the tooling - did he admit it or did he claim he did not know? The seller admitted to nothing. He/she just agreed to accept a return for a full refund even though their ebay listings all say "no refunds". Quote:
I would prefer real Roman coins This is a real Roman coin, just touched up to make it look and sell better. I have seen some very badly done tooling jobs, but this one is not evident at first glance. The only reason it was identified was someone recognized the seller as a notorious seller of tooled coins. Quote:
I'd keep it if he offered a 50% discount I like this strategy, especially since I like the coin. Perhaps I will email the seller and offer to keep it for a 50% refund. Hmmmm, I will have to think on it, but not a bad idea. Regards, JW |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2044 Posts |
How rare is this coin? I done a search for it and found two that are auctions on ebay. The starting price is fairly low although I bet they will go high since there are several days to go. One of them the seller says it might be a copy and there is no return on it. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4253 Posts |
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I done a search for it and found two that are auctions on Ebay Take a look on vcoins.com. The better coins are going for over $150. It's not particularly a rare coin, but it's a well known and sought after coin. I had a very poor quality one I sent to Jangofett a couple of months ago. Maybe I should have kept it and sent it off to be tooled and repatinated. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2044 Posts |
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Maybe I should have kept it and sent it off to be tooled and repatinated. Haha, that's pretty funny. I just bookmarked that site and done a search and ended up finding a bunch of them. For me, $150 is rather steep but I can understand the pricing since it is a nice looking coin. |
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Replies: 46 / Views: 6,495 |
First Page
Posted 11/16/2011 1:12 pm
