Pls Help With My 1878 Morgans - Coin Community Forum

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Author	Replies: 11 / Views: 1,301
Lobby Pillar of the Community United States 548 Posts	Posted 11/20/2011 5:35 pm Yeah, I should probably buy a book, but until I wash lazy off me, perhaps ya'll wanna help? I've got these two 1878 P Morgans. The arrow feathers are different in the two coins. Can ya'll advise? Report this Post to the Staff

Whytlash Valued Member United States 407 Posts	Posted 11/20/2011 9:34 pm The first is the parallel arrow feather (PAF) and the second is the slanted arrow feather (SAF). The PAF eagle has a concave breast and the SAF eagle has a convex (rounded) breast. The PAF is also known as the 2nd reverse and the SAF is the 3rd reverse. Hope this helps, Steve Report this Post to the Staff
Whytlash Valued Member United States 407 Posts	Posted 11/20/2011 9:44 pm The first reverse had 8 tail feathers. It was then pointed out that eagles only have 7 tail feathers, not eight. So the mint began fixing that oversight. A bit more info from coinfacts.com: After using up the 8 Tail Feathers and 7/8 Tail Feathers dies, the Mint finally settled down to the anatomically correct 7 Tail Feathers version. However, two additional problems required a fix. One was the eagle's breast, which appeared unnaturally flat on the earliest 1878 Morgan dollars. The other was the top fletch in the bundle of arrows on the reverse; early versions had a parallel fletch that was out of perspective with the way the arrows were aligned. These two problems were fixed on the reverse dies used in the final part of 1878 - the eagle's breast became rounded and the top fletch was slanted. The dies became known as the "Reverse of 1879" to differentiate them from earlier ones. Thus, the 1878 7 Tail Feathers can be found with either a Reverse of 1878 or a Reverse of 1879! Report this Post to the Staff
Lobby Pillar of the Community United States 548 Posts	Posted 11/21/2011 12:06 am I think I get it. My first pic is a 7 feather, reverse of 78; whereas the 2nd pic is a 7 feather, reverse of 79? Report this Post to the Staff
Whytlash Valued Member United States 407 Posts	Posted 11/21/2011 01:53 am By George, I think he's got it! (BTW, the second coin is a nice one.) Report this Post to the Staff
Lobby Pillar of the Community United States 548 Posts	Posted 11/21/2011 11:22 am Thanks! Continuing with the topic, here's three 1978 S Morgans. I notice they all have the parallel arrow feathers of 1878. I suppose the San Francisco mint didn't mess around with changing the arrow feathers during their 1878 minting year? Report this Post to the Staff
Lobby Pillar of the Community United States 548 Posts	Posted 11/21/2011 11:23 am Oh, it also looks like the 1878 S eagle breasts are concave, too? Report this Post to the Staff
SsuperDdave Moderator United States 23522 Posts	Posted 11/21/2011 11:51 am Quote: Oh, it also looks like the 1878 S eagle breasts are concave, too? Yes, that's the B2 reverse, same as used on your 1878-P's. The overwhelming majority of San Francisco 1878's used it. A very few 1878-S's used the B1 reverse; these are quite valuable even in heavily-circulated condition. 8TF coins are the "A" reverse. The first "B" reverse, B1, is the "Long Nock" we discuss here, which includes the 7/8TF examples. B2 is the short nock, and "C" is "Reverse of 1879," used for the rest of the series with a few small variations. If you can find a Mint State 1878-S Long Nock, you are a winner, and the owner of a coin whose value could reach 5 figures. Report this Post to the Staff
Lobby Pillar of the Community United States 548 Posts	Posted 11/21/2011 12:18 pm Wow. Unfortunately, those are all the 1878 Morgans I have. But I'll be on the lookout. Report this Post to the Staff
goldfinger Valued Member United States 73 Posts	Posted 11/22/2011 12:03 am "The first reverse had 8 tail feathers. It was then pointed out that eagles only have 7 tail feathers, not eight. So the mint began fixing that oversight." ----------------- From what I have read, the American Bald Eagle has neither 7 nor 8 but rather a variable number of tail feathers depending on the stage of the moult, usually 9-12. There seems to be other, more mundane reasons for the change. As far as what reverses the branch mints put out, they used whatever dies they received from Philadelphia. Dies were a big security issue and so to prevent counterfeiting Philadelphia made the dies and kept close tabs on them. Everytime anyone laid hands on a die they signed it in and out for a continuous chain of custody. Totally wasted and spent dies were returned to Philadelphia to be destroyed. Branch mints did not make their own dies. However they were responsible for performing maintenance on the supplied dies, polishing and basining as it was needed. IMO, that die maintenance and the skill or lack thereof of the guys doing it, not to mention the pressure to meet output quotas, is the main reason there is such a huge variety of strike and luster in coins from the same year but from different mints. Edited by goldfinger 11/22/2011 12:18 am Report this Post to the Staff
aladinslamp Pillar of the Community United States 3076 Posts	Posted 11/22/2011 12:55 am nice bit of history there, thanks.. Report this Post to the Staff
Whytlash Valued Member United States 407 Posts	Posted 11/22/2011 01:39 am That's right - I just looked up the story and I somehow transmogrified (always wanted to use that word!) the story into 7 being the correct number, but the truth is that it was pointed out that eagles always have an ODD NUMBER OF TAIL FEATHERS, hence to move to 7. Some additional info from collectorusa.com ("Linderman" is Mint Director Henry R. Linderman): Quote: On March 11, 1878, at 3:17 P.M., the first good Morgan dollar was struck and saved for President Hayes. Regular coinage then commenced and 40,000 Morgan dollars were delivered by the coiner on March 13. After that, everything flowed smoothly. Well, almost. Linderman was of course on hand for the first coinage but then returned to Washington. He came back on the 18th with fresh instructions for changes. Some busybody had pointed out to him that the eagle on the new dollar had eight tailfeathers instead of the traditional seven. Linderman ordered that a revised master die be made showing the 'correct' number of tailfeathers. Morgan began work immediately on the revision and by March 26 it was ready for use. Because many reverse dies (with 8 feathers) were on hand, it was decided to use a little "ingenuity". The dies were partially ground down and then reimpressed with a hub containing 7 tail feathers. However, from the way in which it was done, the change shows on some dies and we have the interesting situation where there are two sets of tail feathers, called '7 over 8 feathers' by collectors. There is a small premium attached to such coins. By the end of March 1878 the revised dies were in use and regular '7 feather' dollars were being made. Dies were then sent to the branch mints at San Francisco and Carson City where coinage began April 18 and April 20, respectively. As if all of the changes made to date were not enough, Linderman visited the Mint again in May with fresh instructions. Morgan once more set to work. This time, however, the alterations were minor and the new dies not put into use until late 1878. This third reverse may be identified by noting that the top arrow feather below the eagle is slanted but parallel on the second set. Report this Post to the Staff
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