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 Replies: 10 / Views: 1,965 |
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New Member
United States
19 Posts |
*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***It's been a while since I've heard of any report of any attempt being conducted to compare, and keep honest, the big TPGs. I'm a skeptic of TPGs generally, but I could possibly be converted by a truly independent and properly conducted study. I also see potential value to the broader coin collecting community if some of the mystery surrounding the TPGs were removed. I'm thinking of annually sending in the same 10 coins to the big TPGs year after year in order to determine a) how the grades compare across TPGs each year and b) how the grades compare from the same TPG year over year. I think only 3 to 5 years worth of data (so 10 to 15 grades for each coin or 3 - 5 grades from each of the big 3 TPGs for each coin) would be sufficient for an initial conclusion either supporting, or destroying, the integrity of a particular TPG's service. Then continue the effort anonymously to the TPGs of course year after year. If the sample 10 coins are stored and handled properly between gradings and everything is documented and on the up and up I think the results of a multi year study like this would be very interesting to the community paying these TPGs a not insignificant amont of dollars in fees. Coin World apparently did something like this a while ago but I believe this was a one time exercise. And this is not a grade the graders exercise. Just a consistent, and frequent quality control check across graders. And shouldn't the ANA be considering something like this? It would be expensive for an individual to do this alone.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2295 Posts |
That is a great idea, but like you said, it would be expensive if one person did it alone.
Maybe there are some big coin clubs that could do it?
Maybe instead of 10 coins, just send in 3 or 4 or whatever the minimum is (in case it is more than 3)?
We all know that grading is an art and not a science, so I would think most coins would come back being a point off either way of its original grading though. I'm pretty sure that is what would happen. Hopefully it isn't much different than that.
And the reason the TPGs don't describe the various grades in detail, is because there is such a variance with all of the factors involved, no one has taken the time to describe it in such great detail. Like what is an MS-60, MS-61, MS-62, etc. for each coin type and denomination.
And even with perfect details of all of the grades, you would still get some variance, because part of grading is eye appeal. And no one can define eye appeal, because beauty is in the eye of the holder.
It is easier for them to get a basic description and then fill in the blanks while grading.
And over time, you'll have different graders at these TPGs, so you know that will change the results too.
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Rest in Peace
United States
3039 Posts |
What you suggest is great in theory but will never happen. TPGs were initially a good idea-to be able to buy and sell coins unseen, relying on the slabbed grade-what a farce! Now we have a hierarchy of "major" TPGs, many minor TPGs and zillions of grade and slab your own dealers. We also have stickers to put on the slabs to designate quality within grades. What's next, stickers to put over stickers and eventually designations like MS63.333+++ sticker, sticker, sticker? Slab cracking and resubmitting has made some folks lotsa money. I guess they're sharp enough to distinguish inconsistentcies in grading-more power to them if they can make money with a flawed system. I feel sorry for the uninformed and unwise collector/investor who has paid good money for overgraded coins and will eventually take a substantial loss when trying to sell. Same for the slabbing of bullion coins and other special designations like "first day" or "this hoard" or "that hoard."All just a grab by the TPGs to perform a moneyectomy out of your wallet. Of course IMHO.  Edited by numismo
01/09/2012 2:14 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts |
I could not agree more strongly with you, numismo.
TPGs are all about making money nowadays and have swerved far, far away from their original purpose: To authenticate coins.
As I've stated elsewhere on the boards, "First Strike" is a farce and PCGS and NGC have both been sued over it and settled out of court.
I *really* want to start the first "Third Party Designator" company that will make stickers for whatever designation people would like.... for a small fee of course. :-)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1151 Posts |
TPGs should be there for one reason, to authenticate. Grades are only an opinion. I can say a G4 Morgan dollar is MS63 and charge MS63 prices, but will it sell? No I think that the First Strike and Early Releases is just a bunch of crap that they charge for an $10. We need to get back to basics. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
3039 Posts |
Agreed, agreed, agreed. Of course don't hold your breath.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4944 Posts |
Another study that would be really interesting, would be to figure out if top tier TPG's really favor well known dealers (Many people say they do). So, you would first grade the coin yourself, to the best of your abilities then have it graded by a TPG three times, to determine the average grade for the coin. Then once all of this is determined, bring the coin to a well known dealer and have them send that coin in for grading on your behalf. It would be very interesting to see if there are differences in the grade you receive, and would also lay the myth of TPG's grading dealers coins higher once and for all. Just a thought |
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New Member
 United States
19 Posts |
Never say never numismo. While the ANA may not stand up amd do something like this, there's nothing stopping one, or a few individuals together, going ahead with this idea. And if they decided to share the results I could see a good number of collectors being very interested. And my idea was not to try and cover the entire world of TPGs or silly labels. Just the big boys, because they garner the lion share of the fees, and only with 10 or so collectable coins that are in relatively good shape but which have nothig particularly special in terms of varieties or errors etc. It wouldn't be hard to identify a sample set of coins which would reflect the quality and consistecy of the TPG's grading services on a set of coins which collectors would likely be interested in having graded. |
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New Member
United States
19 Posts |
SteveCaruso - do you have any source of information on the legal actions you mention against PCGS and NGC? Very interested. Thanks
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote:
Maybe instead of 10 coins, just send in 3 or 4 or whatever the minimum is (in case it is more than 3)? Actually if you want the study to be more accurate you should use more coins not less and over a wide range of designs and grades. The same coins need to be submitted to each service multiple times and I would think they should be sent in a little more often than once a year to check for consistency. Doing it once per year you may be seeing a slow drift in standands or the result in a change in staff. Most people say you just need to submit MS coins becuse they say that if they can grade the MS coins they should be able to grade the circ as well. I think you need to do a range of circulated coins as well. In the Coin World test most of the coins were MS and yes there was a range of opinions. But they also includes a couple of circulated coins and although no one ever mentioned it in the write ups the grading on those circ was all over the map. I would think a group of forty or more coins with at least half a dozen different types and a wide range of grades. Frankly you would probably need even more coins. I'd say a minimum of three submissions of each coin to each service each year. A GOOD study would be a lot more expensive than most people realize. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2295 Posts |
So Snapper, how serious are you interested in doing this? Even a small case study is better than none? You can make your sample as large as you want, but it will still have some variance in it, since there are a ton of unknowns involved. Like the people doing the grading and their experience, the workload they have, a repeat customer, etc. But I think we know the outcome. There will be some variance in the grading, since that has been proved by dealers already by them cracking them open and resubmitting the same coin and getting a different grade back. The more I think about it, I don't think it'll prove anything that we already know. All you will do is waste your money that you could have spent on buying more coins.  |
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Posted 01/09/2012 2:10 pm
