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My Romans

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svslav's Avatar
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 Posted 01/10/2012  11:52 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add svslav to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Despite all my resistance a couple of ancients crept into my collection. I have no literature on this kind, so at this point I have to trust the labels.
Could you please confirm my info on the coins and see if you can add anything (like the full legend interpretation, little anecdotes, and such). Any remarks on the coins are much appreciated!

1. Gordian III, 238 - 244 AD, silver denarius. Rev. Gordian standing.
My-Romans My-Romans


2. Diocletian, 284 - 305 AD, AE-Antoninianus. Rev. Jupiter & Diocletian
My-Romans]
My-Romans
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Bing's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  12:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Stop resisting. It's easier to just give into the dark side.

As for your coins. The first is Gordian III RIC 92:

AR Antoninianus. IMP GORDIANVS PIVS FEL AVG, radiate, draped & cuirassed bust right / PM TR P IIII COS II P P, Gordian in military dress, standing right with spear & globe.

The second coin is indeed Diocletian and I believe it is RIC V 275:

AE Antoninianus. IMP C C VAL DIOCLETIANVS AVG, radiate draped bust right / IOVI ET HERCVLI CONS AVGG, Jupiter and Hercules standing facing each other, holding Victory on globe between them, Epsilon between, XXI in ex.
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Gil-galad's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  12:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gil-galad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a Gordian III Antoninianus very similar to yours.

My-Romans

I believe yours is a Gordian III Antoninianus.

RIC 91

Gordian III AR Antoninianus. IMP GORDIANVS PIVS FEL AVG, radiate, draped & cuirassed bust right / PM TR P III COS II PP, Gordian in military dress, standing right with spear & globe. RSC 242.
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Gil-galad's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  12:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gil-galad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oops. I was working on it at the same time. lol
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Gil-galad's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  12:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gil-galad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, I think it is RIC 92 because of that cloth draping from Gordian III's right side arm.
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Bing's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  12:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know how much you know about Roman Emperors, but Gordian III ruled from 238 - 244:

When the revolt of Gordian I & II in Northern Africa failed the Senate appointed Pupienus and Balbinus as joint emperors. However, this choice proved to be so unpopular that the Senate sought and found the grandson of Gordian I and named him Caesar so as to give an air of a dynastic lineage. Balbinus and Pupienus were murdered soon after leaving the teenage Gordian III as sole emperor. Gordian III then spent the next several years in relative obscurity participating in various wars. He was killed by agents of his Praetorian Prefect, Philip, who had ambitions to become emperor himself.

His coins are fairly common, and many nice examples such as yours are available. I have always been partial to Gordian III coins. I would think the value of this coin would be around $30-$40

Gil-galad: It can't be RIC 91 as it is TRP IIII not III like yours.
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Gil-galad's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  12:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gil-galad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I realized that right after posting the third time. But Hey, I'm learning. lol
Edited by Gil-galad
01/11/2012 12:26 am
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Bing's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  12:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Diocletian ruled from 284 - 305

Originally Diokles, a greek name, Diocletian gained the Latinized form of his name shortly before masterminding a revolt against Carinus. When Carinus received news of this insolence he set out at once with a large army to confront him. The two sides met in a prolonged and bloody match the results of which were finally turning against Diocletian. Seeing that all was lost he prepared to flee with what was left of his army when the most amazing thing happened. It seems Carinus had seduced the wife of one of his bodyguards who, for whatever possible reason, chose during the waning moments of the battle to avenge this affront by murdering his master.

Diocletian was then hailed as emperor by the same army that almost defeated him and he marched towards Rome as victor. Soon after his arrival he named his friend Maximian as co-emperor giving him rule over the western half of the empire. Both would then select subordinates who were not relatives of their own to help in the task and secure a line of succession unlike a blood dynasty. Diocletian's vision of this governmental scheme became known as the Tetrarchy and the first cycle of which was completed, as far as he was concerned, when he abdicated in 305 and demanded Maximian do likewise to leave their subordinates to rule.

Modern historians with the gift of hindsight pinpoint Diocletian's choice of reforming the army as the key culprit of the empire's downfall almost 200 years later. He figured that rather than have weak concentrations of army outposts scattered over the length of the empire's borders it would be better to have a centralized large force which could respond quickly in the event of a military crisis. While the theory may have been sound in principle he never foresaw the obstacles that led to the successful deployment and logistical problems that this method required and, thus, over time Romans became increasingly susceptible to barbarian attacks.

Diocletian died an old, forgotten and heartbroken man in his retirement palace in what is now Croatia. In the end he was vilified for shattering the economy, wreaking political chaos in Rome and resorting to the now somewhat anachronistic practice of persecuting Christians. Finally, he had to witness in his own lifetime the utter failure of his power sharing format when the Tetrarchy disintegrated into the Constantinian dynasty.

Again, this coin is common and available on the market. I'm not real certain of the value, but perhaps $10-$15 for one in the condition of your coin

Regards,
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svslav's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  12:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add svslav to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, thanks, guys! I'd buy more ancients just to post them here and read the stories.

Could you help me make sense of the legends?
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 Posted 01/11/2012  08:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
IMP (Imperator) GORDIANVS PIVS (Pivs) FEL (Felix) AVG (Avgvstvs)
'Commander Gordianus, virtuous and happy Emperor'

Imperator is a kind of advanced military title hence commander, Pius Felix is seen on many coins usually just as 'PF'.

PM (Pontifex Maximus) TR P (Tribunicia Potestate) IIII (4) COS (Consul) II (2) P P (Pater Patriae)
'High Priest / Head of the Religion, Tribune of the People / Power of the Tribune, 4th appointment, Consul, 2nd appointment, father of the Country.

Like the Pope is head of the church today Gordian was then. Tribune and consul titles started at 1 and increased as the Emperor held the title over a number of 'terms'. Using 4+2 we can tell your coin was minted between AD 241-243, we also know it was minted in Rome.

The reverse 'Gordian in military dress, standing right with spear & globe' symbolises Gordians military control over the known world. Its a nice looking coin, I'l do the second one shorty.
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Bing's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  08:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
IMP GORDIANVS PIVS FEL AVG, radiate, draped & cuirassed bust right / PM TR P IIII COS II P P, Gordian in military dress, standing right with spear & globe


"IMP" refers to Imperator. Emperor, generally, although the title was bestowed upon victorious generals in the field during the Republican period and the period of the very early empire. From Tiberius onward, it was a title used by no one other than the emperor.

"GORDIANVS": the name of the gens to which the the emperor's family belonged or better stated as his nomen.

"PIVS FEL": Dutiful, patriotic. Various abbreviations for Pius and Felix (pious, happy)

"AVG": AUGUSTUS. Augustus was the title that actually meant 'Emperor'. The first Emperor made the title ('Revered') almost a personal name and it was assumed on ascension by each successive ruler


Reverse Legend

"PM": PONT MAX - PONTIFEX MAXIMVS: 'Greatest Priest' was held by the most senior ruler when there was more than one Augustus with the others being simply PONTIFEX. The title denoted the position of the Emperor as head of the state religion. PM was not used after the Empire became Christian and the title was (and still is) used by the Pope.

"TR P IIII": TRIBVNICIA POTESTAS: An important Republican office was Tribune of the People (plebs) with the power to veto acts of the Senate. The office was first taken on ascension and renewed annually. At first the renewals dated to 10 December (the traditional date) but some rulers used the anniversary of their ascension or 1 January so it is necessary to know which system was in use before dating each reign. In this case it was Gordianus' fourth time as Tribune of the People.

"COS II": Highest of the offices under the Republic was one of the two annually available consulships. Under the Empire, the office of Consul remained of some importance and was held by the Emperor and his family members with some frequency. Few Romans were ever allowed to serve as Consul more than twice. The exception, of course was the Emperor who could serve whenever the mood struck. As with TRP and IMP the lack of a numeral can mean the first consulship or simply that the numeral was not expressed on the coin. In this case it was the second Consulship for Gorgianus.

"P P": PATER PATRIAE: Pater Patriae (Father of his Country) was held by most Augusti but was usually not assumed at the very beginning of the reign. The traditional (and not always observed) practice saw the new Augustus decline the honor of PP and wait a while until he had proven himself worthy of so great a title.

So, because we know so much from the legends, we can conclude that this coins minted AD 241 and probably at Rome.

I hope this helps.
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bobbyhelmet's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  08:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
IMP (Imperator) C (Caesar) C (Gaius) VAL (Valerius) DIOCLETIANVS AVG (Augustus)

'Commander Caesar Gaius Valerius Diocletianus, Emperor'

The second 'C' oddly stands for 'Gaius', one of Diocletians names, as is Valerius.

IOVI (Iovi) ET (and) HERCVLI (Hercvli) CONS (Conservatori) AVGG (Avgvsti)

'Jupiter and Hercules protector / preserver of the Emperors'

'Emperors' is signified by 'AVGG' and not just 'AVG', we know this coin was minted between 293-295AD in Siscia so the Emperors it is referring to are Diocletian and Maximian as they joint ruled at this time each having their own Caesars beneath them.

Epsilon (Workshop no 5) XXI (ratio 20:1)

Your coin was made in workshop or 'officinae' number 5 at Siscia, at this time Siscia used Greek symbols rather than Latin to record workshop numbers. The system ran: 1=Alpha; 2=Beta; 3=Gamma; 4=Delta; 5=Epsilon; 6=Stigma; 7=Zeta; 8=Eta; 9=Theta/Epsilon+Delta(for superstitious reasons); 10=Iota; 11=Iota+Alpha; 12=Iota+Beta etc.

'XXI' can be a contentious issue but it most likely stands for '20 parts bronze to 1 part silver' showing the coins metal content.

Jupiter and Hercules standing facing each other holding Victory on globe simply personifies the legend above.

As JW and Darth Vader once said, join us on the dark side, you wont regret it
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nothing to add other than they are very nice coins.
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svslav's Avatar
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 Posted 01/11/2012  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add svslav to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, everybody, this was extremely helpful! (Much more than I could have expected)
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